DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Magusrex]

I don't really understand the hatred against meters. They are just tools. I never saw much bullying over them. I did see some people get embarrassed because their abysmal performance was made public. No one cares if you are not at the top or even if you are at the bottom for that matter, but people deserve to know if you performing at less than half capacity of what an average person of you gear level suggests. FYI I have seen people who do 1/10 of what an average person does. I was in a WoD run where it took us 14 minutes to kill the first boss. I was determined to win because the people left said I couldn't get it done. I took it as challenge, I gave detailed descriptions, I marked people and locations. I encouraged, kept telling them we could do it, we got better, By Cerberus we had a good team. We didn't finish though, the last boss we just wiped and wiped until the timer ran out. We lacked the DPS to kill clouds. I tried sooooo hard, I am certain I had a number of DPS who were just worthless, They had to be terrible. If we had a meter we could have asked them to leave so everyone else could have succeeded. I not certain we were not being trolled.

[Welsper59]

I don't really understand the hatred against meters. They are just tools. I never saw much bullying over them. I did see some people get embarrassed because their abysmal performance was made public. No one cares if you are not at the top or even if you are at the bottom for that matter, but people deserve to know if you performing at less than half capacity of what an average person of you gear level suggests. FYI I have seen people who do 1/10 of what an average person does. I was in a WoD run where it took us 14 minutes to kill the first boss. I was determined to win because the people left said I couldn't get it done. I took it as challenge, I gave detailed descriptions, I marked people and locations. I encouraged, kept telling them we could do it, we got better, By Cerberus we had a good team. We didn't finish though, the last boss we just wiped and wiped until the timer ran out. We lacked the DPS to kill clouds. I tried sooooo hard, I am certain I had a number of DPS who were just worthless, They had to be terrible. If we had a meter we could have asked them to leave so everyone else could have succeeded. I not certain we were not being trolled.

I think for the people against the ideas of parsers (at least for now), their point and argument is similar to those that are for it. In that the person who does that 1/10 output will still do 1/10 output and be fine for it in the content mentioned, even if an official parser were released. They'll still be worthless/terrible for their contribution, one way or another. A parser does little to change those people, other than serve as a tool to single out said person. While some may not see that as a bad thing, part of the reason it isn't made officially avail is the same reason as to why we can't single out people on forums.

If all 15 DPS in a WoD run are terrible, then a parser won't save your run. Asking them to step it up or leave won't work, as it's probably a DF run in 99% of any case. It's not a reportable offense neither, since that'd be implying it's against ToS to be bad at the game. Its official existence serves little purpose to those who don't care for it, and the fact it doesn't officially exist serves as that layer of protection against the sort of outcome that WoW had at one point. The parsers did not become mainstream use outside of the small number of people in endgame raids until sometime around TBC, especially WotLK actually, which is when raiding saw a significant growth in participation, and it was around that time that things became far more toxic as far as ridiculous expectations for simple content goes. Never underestimate how far your idiotic peers will go to misuse helpful tools. It's just like win-trading in TT and PvP. Devs underestimated the player bases tenacity to misuse or exploit tools given to them to do something. Just because only a few would do this, doesn't mean it won't affect the many (like with TT). The numbers game has a very powerful grasp on players in MMORPGs (and many other things really).

You do know parsers where used as far back as Everquest?

That was in reference to those games in particular.

Console users have no access to parsers like PC users do (I'm on PC btw), irrespective of the fact it is unofficial. It is still something PC users have access to that console users don't that does affect players abilities as without hard figures on what you are doing it is much more difficult to monitor.

Console users also don't have access to hacks that I'm aware of. Those aren't officially supported. Something being officially supported has far more importance than you might think. Obviously, hacks are more destructive, but they're still something that console users don't have access to, if we're going to use that as some defense about why something should be supported just because one has the potential over the other.

Look, I'm not against parsers at all. I'm 100% indifferent of them because I know the good that it serves. I also know the bad that happens, as I've experienced it first-hand over the years. I observe how things evolve (or devolve in some cases). I am against poorly constructed arguments though. And you need a GOOD and impenetrable one if you're looking to gain sway over a matter that the creators themselves don't support. That's not to say they won't ever change their mind, but these defenses aren't exactly any better than the stereotypical type that gets thrown around by both sides.

[Sapphic]

I think for the people against the ideas of parsers (at least for now), their point and argument is similar to those that are for it. In that the person who does that 1/10 output will still do 1/10 output and be fine for it in the content mentioned,

So you are saying those who are happy performing below minimum requirements for content are the only ones who should be taken into consideration for an addition of a personal parser? Don't those who want to improve, who maybe after seeing their performance with a parser will strive to improve if below what they think they are, for those who use it properly, all those people don't matter?

Those who play terribly may be upset by a personal parser being added. What about those who end up with those players and unable to clear content because the former just don't care? Trying to do content but getting put with someone who doesn't care or think that they are playing properly isn't upsetting when others point out and give advice which they ignore because they think they are playing to a level they can do whats needed. Those may not believe the other player, but when they can see hard numbers saying they are not performing in a way that is beneficial but a detriment to the party, it may shake them up.

Trust me, players are already being kicked for underperforming due to unnificial parsers, having or not having personal parsers will not change that.

[Welsper59]

So you are saying those who are happy performing below minimum requirements for content are the only ones who should be taken into consideration for an addition of a personal parser? Don't those who want to improve, who maybe after seeing their performance with a parser will strive to improve if below what they think they are, for those who use it properly, all those people don't matter?

Those who play terribly may be upset by a personal parser being added. What about those who end up with those players and unable to clear content because the former just don't care? Trying to do content but getting put with someone who doesn't care or think that they are playing properly isn't upsetting when others point out and give advice which they ignore because they think they are playing to a level they can do whats needed. Those may not believe the other player, but when they can see hard numbers saying they are not performing in a way that is beneficial but a detriment to the party, it may shake them up.

Trust me, players are already being kicked for underperforming due to unnificial parsers, having or not having personal parsers will not change that.

Why would they suddenly not matter? Are you implying that right now, because the parsers are not officially supported, that they don't matter? Are you implying that everyone shuns players without parsers and that literally everyone will prevent any access to content to these players? If someone wants to be better, they'll find ways to do it. They'll look up rotation/priority/gearing guides. They'll seek help from others. Following these guides or the advice given will likely give you that extra edge to perform decently (see nearly all forms of content in this non-hardcore raiding centric game). Having a parser does not change this from how it is now.

The existing unofficial parsers serve as that extra measure for endgame raids, and Yoshi-P himself has stated that they don't mind the idea of people using parsers, they just can't support it (meaning you don't go about announcing it to the world, bad mouthing people with it, etc). Just like how it is to learn about how to play your class, as a console user, you'd also seek out the aid of someone who has a parser, if you're interested in it. There's NOTHING wrong with the idea of that being the case.

The fact people get kicked currently isn't of much concern to the argument. There is an established goal in mind usually, but being kicked as a result of the parser (namely if exact numbers or usage is mentioned), is a reportable offense. It's the potential outcome from it being made openly available. Again though, just because they don't officially support it, doesn't mean people can't literally use it or find others who do. They don't mind it as long as it's not being misused, and this is exactly why they don't want to officially support it. It's a potential safeguard for those who are the target end of someone who does misuse it.

As a note, I did edit my post earlier, after you apparently posted this reply (albeit of different concerns). But yeah, as I mentioned in that edit, I'm not against parsers.

[Sapphic]

Why would they suddenly not matter?

Because general argument against parsers is that those who are performing under the minimum standard needed for content may get upset by being able to see that they are performing lower than they think they are.

I'm not advocating a scoreboard or a party wide parser, just a personal parser so you can see yourself, and no-one else, how you are performing. Which will give players a solid reference of what they should/could be attaining to, to be able to clear content they are stuck on.

[Gilraen]

I'm not advocating a scoreboard or a party wide parser, just a personal parser so you can see yourself, and no-one else, how you are performing. Which will give players a solid reference of what they should/could be attaining to, to be able to clear content they are stuck on.

This I have no problem with. I don't think anyone here has a problem with this. But it's not what's being asked for. What is being asked for is some kind of party tally of everyone involved 'for improvement's sake'. As has also been pointed out, the potential for abuse from such a tally is too much to be permissible. We already alienate people enough with such excuses as low HP, low iL and even number of times killed in a run. We don't need to add to that with a parser.

[Malevicton]

As has also been pointed out, the potential for abuse from such a tally is too much to be permissible.

You seem to take this as a given, but a lot of people disagree. As far as I can tell the only abuse is that people who were rude already would start being rude with numbers. I can see how parsers might exacerbate pre-existing douchebaggery, but it's not gonna create new problems. It's not like we have to get abstract or hypothetical either; parsers are far from unknown territory. Plenty of other games have them and they work fine (and don't tear the community apart).

Do you have anything besides anecdotes to support their abuse potential?

[Massterchef]

We don't need to add to that with a parser.

They are already used by any PC player that wants to know their own DPS which happens to be a lot of people. Where is the chaos and shaming en mass that you are talking about?

Excuses aside, you are just afraid that people will be able to identify your poor play with proof. Is it any surprise that you just completed second coil last month? Which would suggest you don't attempt content when it's relevant or have any perspective on DPS checks.