DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Massterchef]

Since I havn't beaten the final turn must mean I suck.

More like, since you haven't attempted the final turn when it was relevant content, that would mean you have no perspective on the importance of a parser and what raiding entails.

Why? Because you attempt and clear the content when you over-gear it. You haven't experienced not being able to hit a DPS check because echo, soldiery/poetic gear, and nerfs make the content child's play in comparison to what it was at patch. That's not to say you're a bad player but clearly you have no perspective on what raiding requires nor the importance of a parser.

[Giantbane]

I think the group wide DPS meter is just going to invite more drama. However I would really appreciate a personal DPS meter so I can judge my own performance. I don't need to know everyone else's DPS. I play on PS4 so I don't even have the option of using an illegal parser (not that it's a very good option).

[Sapphic]

More like, since you haven't attempted the final turn when it was relevant content, that would mean you have no perspective on the importance of a parser and what raiding entails.

Gotta agree, turn 13 pre echo was a seriously tight DPS check before over gearing. Every point of damage mattered and one person behind the minimum will lead to enrage timre causing a wipe. A parser allows you to see where the problems are.

Thus I am all for a personal official parser.

We all know many PC users use an unofficial parser, by adding an official personal parser it makes all PC and console users equal.

[Welsper59]

More like, since you haven't attempted the final turn when it was relevant content, that would mean you have no perspective on the importance of a parser and what raiding entails.

Why? Because you attempt and clear the content when you over-gear it. You haven't experienced not being able to hit a DPS check because echo, soldiery/poetic gear, and nerfs make the content child's play in comparison to what it was at patch. That's not to say you're a bad player but clearly you have no perspective on what raiding requires nor the importance of a parser.

That actually depends on the content at hand. The hardest raids do often gain the absolute most amount of benefit from parsers. Raiding requirements don't always involve parsing though. Source: over 10 years of raiding in games since FFXI and vanilla WoW, before parsers were even a thing. Our work-around was knowing where we could gear up to meet unknown requirements to complete (and this worked fine when you hit that point).

In the case of FFXIV, parsers really aren't needed for the vast majority of content. The max tier of endgame content tends to these days, which is why Yoshi-P isn't exactly against them and understands how important they are, but can't fully support them which is why he wants people that do use it to be hush hush (this being people who do find need for it, i.e. hardcore raiders). You have the acknowledgement of the devs to use it, just not the backing because of reasons. Why is this topic something for people to be defensive about just because folks don't want something that the devs too don't want to put in?

[Darra]

Why is this topic something for people to be defensive about just because folks want something?

There, I fixed your quote for you.

[Vire]

That actually depends on the content at hand. The hardest raids do often gain the absolute most amount of benefit from parsers. Raiding requirements don't always involve parsing though. Source: over 10 years of raiding in games since FFXI and vanilla WoW, before parsers were even a thing. Our work-around was knowing where we could gear up to meet unknown requirements to complete (and this worked fine when you hit that point).

I can say for a fact that every Vanilla Wow guild competing for world first clears of AQ and Nax where using dps parsers. Specially so for every guild who was in the race on Korgath at the time. I don't know about FFXI because I never played the end game seriously. But that is disingenuous saying vanilla wow raiders were not using parsers/ dps meters. They where a thing since the second boss of BWL was a dps check enrage fight.

[Welsper59]

I can say for a fact that every Vanilla Wow guild competing for world first clears of AQ and Nax where using dps parsers. Specially so for every guild who was in the race on Korgath at the time. I don't know about FFXI because I never played the end game seriously. But that is disingenuous saying vanilla wow raiders were not using parsers/ dps meters. They where a thing since the second boss of BWL was a dps check enrage fight.

A couple things to note about what you said are regarding the world first clears and pointing out the stuff towards the end of the vanilla era (when addons were far more used and accepted as standard play). My point was that they weren't necessary to use just for the sake of completion. World First objectives/goals are very far and few, of which you gotta take the measures you need to to achieve. That doesn't change the fact that it's not something you need simply to clear (back then). DPS checks started popping up once the devs knew they had released enough gear of intended strength for players to use to clear them, which wasn't until far into the games (then current) progress.

FFXI didn't have any existing parsers (that I'm aware of) until years later, due to the fact you couldn't use addons due to how the game launch was structured. When the windower utility was released (not supported officially), that's when folks started to use parsers... but it was never really required for any content I'm aware of.

[Vire]

What im saying is dps checks where in the second raid released for the game and people were using them even back then world first clears or not. I was just talking about the last two raids because I have first hand experiences that showed without a shadow of a doubt everyone was using them. That doesn't mean people were not using them before. To talk about vanilla raiding and say things like world first clears are a tiny minority is weird because 40 man raiding intrinsically was hardcore. Anyone who was going through the effort to organize 40 people at the time where already the 1% of the game. It wasn't till TBC and Wrath really where raiding became accessible to most players so I really don't agree that DPS parsing wasn't a big deal in vanilla as only the most hard core elite players where doing raiding in the first place. I am not talking about pugging MC 2 months before TBC came out either.

edited for clarity

[RiceisNice]

Gotta agree, turn 13 pre echo was a seriously tight DPS check before over gearing. Every point of damage mattered and one person behind the minimum will lead to enrage timre causing a wipe. A parser allows you to see where the problems are.

Thus I am all for a personal official parser.

We all know many PC users use an unofficial parser, by adding an official personal parser it makes all PC and console users equal.

Even outside of T13, if you were say.. forming a static-to-be or even PF before echo came out and starting at T10, the dps check is still there. You can't afford to be lugging around people who can't/won't play up to snuff.

And heck, this can still be the case even with echo if you have two people who can't perform well.

[Magusrex]

I don't really understand the hatred against meters. They are just tools. I never saw much bullying over them. I did see some people get embarrassed because their abysmal performance was made public. No one cares if you are not at the top or even if you are at the bottom for that matter, but people deserve to know if you performing at less than half capacity of what an average person of you gear level suggests. FYI I have seen people who do 1/10 of what an average person does. I was in a WoD run where it took us 14 minutes to kill the first boss. I was determined to win because the people left said I couldn't get it done. I took it as challenge, I gave detailed descriptions, I marked people and locations. I encouraged, kept telling them we could do it, we got better, By Cerberus we had a good team. We didn't finish though, the last boss we just wiped and wiped until the timer ran out. We lacked the DPS to kill clouds. I tried sooooo hard, I am certain I had a number of DPS who were just worthless, They had to be terrible. If we had a meter we could have asked them to leave so everyone else could have succeeded. I not certain we were not being trolled.