DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[LunaHoshino]

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

[Zaft]

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

Because we can't have anybody with hurt feelings.

[MirielleLavandre]

Because we can't have any DPS with hurt feelings.

Fixed it a lil. As a WHM I can get kicked, yelled at, and harassed if I don't do my job, just like a tank can. As others have said, it isn't fair that dps can just slide by under everyones radar since there is no way to legally tell them they are doing poor dps. DPS players know this -- which is why you'll see people having sub 200 numbers in i130 gear even in easy content like WoD...

I see this all the time in experts if I PUG them (hardly ever) -- tank does a rather large pull, I set up to Holy spam, PoM Holy, but the group that normally would be dead in 30-35 secs stays alive for well over a minute. Examine dps - they're in i130 -- so obviously it isn't a gear issue... but god forbid I try to point out rotations...(this using BLM for context). There's no bar to hold DPS to in this game, sadly, that can be used as a metric to gauge performance

[siverstorm]

I had not thought of it from that perspective and I only play my tank or healer. BLM is realistically retired because I wont wait int he queue. That is a very fair point and that is why no one is talking to you, there is not counter to your point.

Oh hell yeah. I've been saying that since page 5 on this thread and I'm a DPS main, haha. Didn't get a response until I started getting more blunt and even then it was the standard "qq toxic community" response. Hell, Massterchef said the exact same thing I did (calling the heal/tank issue a double standard) a few pages back and was met with nonsensical arguments the entire ride through.

[Welsper59]

I don't understand the "DPS optimization doesn't matter outside of raid settings" argument at all. No one says it's okay for a tank to not be able to hold hate or to take the boss for a walk in low-level content. No one says it's okay for a healer to not Protect/Stoneskin or not heal effectively in low-level content.

A DPS' job is to deal damage. If they are not doing damage appropriate to the level of gear they are wearing, they are not doing their job. Period.

Why is this considered acceptable?

It's unfortunately acceptable because it's the least impacting role. Mind you, the majority of content in this game can be beaten by mediocre players regardless of role (or perhaps, some mediocre players for certain endgame content that isn't max tier). At this point in time, would you really take the time of kicking a bad DPS that has little impact on your actual progress of the instance you've ran at least 50 times already? We already let people slide sometimes in content, for example in LotA. I've had healers, tanks, and dps AFK from start to finish at the starting point. The reason? It's impossible to kick them in a rush group that just wants to get things done. Initial timer, mid-combat, and loot still being rolled on prevents kicking.

The only notable time you'd really care about output is actual endgame max tier (see actually difficult) content. Tanking and healing requires a lot more personal responsibility, hence why they stand out the most. DPS are a dime a dozen. In those cases, people already parse, so responsibility is there on the DPS end. It's not a matter of parsers saving people from this, it's the content at hand. If every single thing required a strict DPS check, FFXIV wouldn't be the open arms game it is. That's why it's acceptable.

Oh hell yeah. I've been saying that since page 5 on this thread and I'm a DPS main, haha. Didn't get a response until I started getting more blunt and even then it was the standard "qq toxic community" response. Hell, Massterchef said the exact same thing I did (calling the heal/tank issue a double standard) a few pages back and was met with nonsensical arguments the entire ride through.

The statement I shared in this post actually applies to your inquiry as well. It's the design of the game, which has nothing to do with parsers. Players that are looking to use parsers for this purpose outside of progressive max tier content are essentially going on a witch hunt.

[juniglee]

I think we can all clearly see a few facts:

- There are 6 DPS jobs to 4 tank/healers in total. This generally means that there will be a larger number of people who play DPS roles.
- Coil (endgame) is only really done by a really small percentage of the playerbase. Like maybe 5 - 8% (pulling numbers out of my ass here, it could be smaller for all we know)
- In the interest of preserving the feelings of the larger portion of the playerbase (DPS players who do not raid or do anything considered "hard", or requires DPS optimization), hence why DPS gets a free slide from underperforming

Barring Coil, you'll find that most content requires like 1 or 2 good DPS players, and these few tend to be more than enough to put up for weight of the other sub-par DPS players. Perhaps Yoshi-P already had this in mind when he came up with raids like the CT series. You can clearly see it even in design - there's 2 DPS players per light party, not just because DPS players are the majority, but because both players combined usually only end up having to hit a lower DPS threshold.

Tanks/healers still happen to be the rarer of the few, and for some reason Yoshi-P decides it's okay to let the DPS players rag on them for underperforming. Then we fall into a spiral where said tanks/healers become demotivated, and we get even less of them in circulation. Perhaps we all need to look inside and realize that until people embrace improvement and generally decent human behaviour, Yoshi-P won't give us the parsers we want.

I am all for parsers. I am all for advocating better play. Fact, I use parsers myself, and I do get a certain joy when I outperform everyone else. But the only time I care about my numbers is Coil. Outside of that, anything goes.

But until the community can embrace calls for improvement as an actual call for improvement, and work within themselves to improve and go to a higher level, rather than treating every little thing as an insult, or a personal attack, we are going nowhere, and official parsers will never see the light of day. I play on a JP server, and I generally never see this issue, except within the EN players.

[NintenPyjak64]

If we do get parsers, I hope they are as cool as this one.





That's just real nice.

Warcraft Logs is an amazing tool for sure. If you care to read my experience with WCL, I'll have a box below, be warned I'm a rambler

Yay I finally learned how to make these boxes!

When I started WoD raiding progression, the guild I joined was terrible. I had just got my Marksman Hunter to 100 and i630, and my friend was playing a Destruction Warlock which at the time was a HORRIBLE class to do raid progression with. We were both constantly top DPS by an incredible margin.

Weeks later I found out how to set up WCL and brought it up with the officers. After a couple of nights the raid leaders were impressed with the tool and I was promoted. After that we saw vast improvements with the other members.

One particular case I remember is a Demonology Warlock was constantly under-performing and couldn't figure out why. I looked through several of his WCL tab, found out exactly what the issue was (improper use of Molten Core procs with Demonbolt talent and poor Hand of Gul'dan uptime) by talking with more experienced Warlocks. The next raid week I had this warlock competitive with the other top DPS of the guild

I've even used this tool to compare myself to other Hunters and that pushed me to do research to find out WHY my performance was only half that of other Hunters in the same iLvl bracket. Before I quit to play 14 again, I was still dominating ST fights but was proud to see I was getting stomped in AoE fights (which was the vast majority of Blackrock Foundry fights)

If you got this far I thank you for reading the words of a rambler

Rambling aside, I fully support parsers for 14. In my views the positives outweigh the negatives, yes people are going to whine and complain about DPS, but in reality, they're already complaining about other things you and other people are doing/not doing. If these people get under your skin, blacklist/report/move on please

[siverstorm]

The statement I shared in this post actually applies to your inquiry as well. It's the design of the game, which has nothing to do with parsers. Players that are looking to use parsers for this purpose outside of progressive max tier content are essentially going on a witch hunt.

That's a cop-out reason though. And making a pessimistic assumption that literally everyone will be using it maliciously. That still ignores the fact that your so called "witch hunt" EXISTS in the non-progression endgame content, nevermind the actual hardcore raiding content in the game. We were also talking about how tanks and healers can get flak even for a minor fumble (lost aggro, death from unavoidable damage, etc). If a tank or healer isn't performing to standard then it's impacting even the faceroll content. The whole point is that it shouldn't be acceptable but you're saying "it is what it is, people can be malicious as all hell to tanks and healers but who cares about dps". It's not okay that we can crucify one side and ignore the other lol.

And again, I'm already not kicking the piss poor augmented ironworks dps that I'm beating on my Yagrush WHM in trivial content. But maybe a sanctioned parser can help them see that they're not performing well at all.

Rambling aside, I fully support parsers for 14. In my views the positives outweigh the negatives, yes people are going to whine and complain about DPS, but in reality, they're already complaining about other things you and other people are doing/not doing. If these people get under your skin, blacklist/report/move on please

^

[Sapphic]

My solution, add a personal parser for everyone that is toggleable, and add the option (if all party members agree) to a party wide parser for fully premade parties. As, pretty much those who want the tool for progression are running in statics anyways so they would never clash with everyone against them.

PF parties can set up with or without party wide parser, stated in requirements. Don't want to be in a party with a parser? Don't join that PF party.

[Sapphic]

It's unfortunately acceptable because it's the least impacting role. Mind you, the majority of content in this game can be beaten by mediocre players regardless of role

That's only because the majority overgear the content when it's new. If you had played or remember before AK got nerfed, on demon wall, everyone had to play to a decent standard to be able to progress past it. There where many tanks fishing for 2/3 progression exactly because of demon wall and the bees.

Then came Pharos Sirius, which required a certain level of ability by players to clear. Which turned into Pharos vote abandon, Steps of Faith require a little bit of coordination, it is now labelld as Steps of vote abandon.

The first 3 have already been nerfed due to mediocre players in ability or disinjterest in improving to beat that challenge. A personal parser may kick them into reality that they are not performing at the standard required to clear content like that. Instead of thinking they are are then taking the easy path and complaining on the forums for nerfs.

Hell, first week of the 3.5 dungeons players where crying on the forums that they are "too hard".