DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Karen_Cerfrumos]

But why is removing a player from a party for low DPS is somehow unjust if it results in inability to clear a duty?
Coil... yeah, whatever. Cloud of Darkness, Steps of Faith, Ramuh EX phase 2, Amdapor Keep HM, goddamn Titan... These all feature DPS checks that can easily lead to a group-wide failure when not met.
The game does expect you to perform well already, being bad isn't against the ToS but it is against what game actually expects you to do.
Sticking your head into the sand with "you can't stop me from having fun" is exactly what leads to 50-page threads like "Steps of Faith is too hard, QQ". It's just hypocritical.
I know this sounds a bit like "You don't have anything to fear if you don't have anything to hide", but developers chose to put the aforementioned DPS checks in front of the players, even those that don't do what is officially considered the raid.

[Dante_V]

The fact they don't officially support it is SE's tool to help prevent bad behavior on that matter. If someone calls you out on your poor DPS and mocks/kicks you unjustly for it, namely if they actually reveal your numbers or mention parsers, you'd have the opportunity to contact a GM about it and have this person suffer the consequences for their behavior as a result of third party programs. This is something you would NOT be able to do very easily if parsers were officially allowed. Situational mocking of someone is not an offense that violates the ToS just because you hurt someones feelings of their gameplay, afterall.

My point is that it isn't objectively preventing anything at all. Groups will disband and reform without the low parsing dps, no harassment needed.

The point here being is that it isn't the "third party programs (parsers)" that SE is banning you for in this instance it's because you used it to harass someone. Square knows well that people use parsers and do not care, they just don't want you harassing people with it. But even with all of this there is still not a valid reason to not let a person see their OWN dps numbers. None at all.

"This is something you would NOT be able to do very easily if parsers were officially allowed"

^^ This is nothing more than assumption and there is no objective proof that allowing a person to see their own dps will make it "harder" to stop people from harassing each other. It's a non-sequitur. Harassment has and will be dealt with the same way it has always been.

[Kallera]

How does it currently effect the stability of players outside of endgame when non-console users that want to parse already parse? Unless you're saying that the state of the community is already in chaos with people getting kicked due to lack of performance en mass then that argument has no bearing.

This comes down to availability. Currently if you want to participate in endgame as a console user, youhave to rely on PC users for analysis. PC users that want to already do, Console users that want to can't.

If they already parse, they cannot let on publicly that they are parsing information. If parsers were made official, not only would more advanced parsers be favored by PC players, it would throw open the doors to public decisions and restrictions based on that information. PF invites, speed runs, LS requirements, the new person in a roulette party? Vote kicked, because statistics show they cannot perform to the party's perceived satisfaction, never mind their gear or actions.

[Welsper59]

Not true at all. The harassment is what the focus on when banning or whatever conciquence they deem necessary. The fact that you are parsing is irrelevant even in the current ToS.

Overly done, yeah, it's very easy to catch someone and take appropriate action against them as a GM. In those cases, often very particular words are used (e.g. racial slurs or threats of violence), and these make it easy to make a call. In the case of parsers however, saying "your dps is really low. get gud nub" followed by "im carrying this group cuz the other guy sucks" and so on, is not grounds to take action against alone, regardless of how annoying this person may be. The parsing tool has a lot to do with whether or not action is taken though, even if it may not be the primary personal reason you call a GM (you called because this guys an asshole), it may be the main reason a GM can easily take action if parsing is suspected.

An old interview you may or may not have seen (particularly important in this context is the last 30sec) :
https://youtu.be/3-WXYg-S05U?t=6m4s

[Welsper59]

But why is removing a player from a party for low DPS is somehow unjust if it results in inability to clear a duty?
Coil... yeah, whatever. Cloud of Darkness, Steps of Faith, Ramuh EX phase 2, Amdapor Keep HM, goddamn Titan... These all feature DPS checks that can easily lead to a group-wide failure when not met.
The game does expect you to perform well already, being bad isn't against the ToS but it is against what game actually expects you to do.
Sticking your head into the sand with "you can't stop me from having fun" is exactly what leads to 50-page threads like "Steps of Faith is too hard, QQ". It's just hypocritical.
I know this sounds a bit like "You don't have anything to fear if you don't have anything to hide", but developers chose to put the aforementioned DPS checks in front of the players, even those that don't do what is officially considered the raid.

Depending on what's actually being said, it's not as hypocritical as you might think. Content outside of Coil is hardly what I would call a DPS check. Even with Cloud, properly/decently performing DPS (which does not, by any stretch of the imagination require parsing) will not prevent you from victory. Parsing is there to give you the extra bump in output timing (maybe around ~50 DPS extra in some cases), whereas knowing your class and rotation/priorities will get you the grand majority of output. Why do you believe parsing is the bulk of your output? I didn't take advantage of finding out my output at all in this game until recently, and right off the bat, I was pretty damn close to what I should have been with the gear I had.

My point is that it isn't objectively preventing anything at all. Groups will disband and reform without the low parsing dps, no harassment needed.

The point here being is that it isn't the "third party programs (parsers)" that SE is banning you for in this instance it's because you used it to harass someone. Square knows well that people use parsers and do not care, they just don't want you harassing people with it. But even with all of this there is still not a valid reason to not let a person see their OWN dps numbers. None at all.

"This is something you would NOT be able to do very easily if parsers were officially allowed"

^^ This is nothing more than assumption and there is no objective proof that allowing a person to see their own dps will make it "harder" to stop people from harassing each other. It's a non-sequitur. Harassment has and will be dealt with the same way it has always been.

Oh no no, I agree. It doesn't fully prevent anything at all. People are going to be... well, people. Laws are there to protect and prevent, but it doesn't mean we're not going to break them from time to time. I'm pointing out that the fact it's not officially allowed is merely protection, and as we all know, protection is not guaranteed to prevent. It's merely an extra layer, and given that SE knows about how useful parsing is when used appropriately, it's exactly why they don't mind people using it... just don't misuse it. Again, the current mentality is that its unofficial status keeps it a means to protect from those negative situations and reduce the occurrence of singled out players, nothing more.

[Malevicton]

If they already parse, they cannot let on publicly that they are parsing information. If parsers were made official, not only would more advanced parsers be favored by PC players, it would throw open the doors to public decisions and restrictions based on that information. PF invites, speed runs, LS requirements, the new person in a roulette party? Vote kicked, because statistics show they cannot perform to the party's perceived satisfaction, never mind their gear or actions.

You can already do all those things, you just can't explicitly state that you're doing them with the in-game chat. Allow parsers and I assure you that the rise in "kicked for low dps" reports will correspond with a sudden drop in mystery kicks. At least people will know what's going on.

[Magusrex]

No one wants to shamed, even if they might deserve it. I believe facts are good, I like transparency. In other games with meters people used to ask for my advice and help, because I was consistently a top performer. Other guilds invited me to their raids as guest and allowed me loot. When I first began raiding seeing myself at the bottom was my motivation to succeed. The key to improving at anything is keeping score. Over time I grew to really enjoy analyzing data to find ways to improve or succeed at an encounter very satisfying. We started timing our farming runs to make them interesting. I am not naive enough to not understand that some bad behaviors emerge from meters, I feel the benefits outweigh the negatives. I like the truth.

Almost no one is going to like what I am about to say. I am going to say it in such way as people will say..."That right there, that attitude is exactly why we don't want them" I don't care. A very small minority of people, really, really suck, they don't care that they suck, they don't care that their groups wipe over and over, they don't try to improve, they pay and they can play however they like, they expect you to carry them, they expect you not to complain about it, and they point you out as the bad guy if you do complain, and the last thing they want is for proof of the magnitude of their suck to be made public. It's Ok that you know they suck, but they can tell themselves they don't, and they believe it, meters make them have to face their suck over and over. Is what it is.

[Welsper59]

It has nothing to do with parsing, period. The people that get actions taken against them in-game for parsing are usually abusing it via harassment. They aren't actively looking for or into people 'suspected of parsing'.

Yes, exactly. When did I say otherwise? It's the people abusing its use or bragging too much about it that will have action taken against them, of which will involve their use of it along with whatever other violations. Third party tools, no matter how harmless, are not allowed or approved of... period. They don't WANT to get people banned (temp) for its use, but they will simply because parsing, which is done through a third party program, is not allowed. Parsing in this game is a "hush hush" matter, which means you have the go-ahead, just don't be stupid about it. Summed up, the fact it's not allowed is a tool used against bad behavior.

[Massterchef]

Yes, exactly. When did I say otherwise?

This is something you would NOT be able to do very easily if parsers were officially allowed. Situational mocking of someone is not an offense that violates the ToS just because you hurt someones feelings of their gameplay, afterall.

By claiming a person would rarely receive any consequences for harassing someone for poor DPS simply because parsers were legal. Which is again, not the case. Even if they were fair game to use, harassing people for low DPS would not be allowed.

Basically even if there is proof(via parse) that someone's DPS is low, that does not give you a green light to mock and ridicule.

[Rhas]

BLM and SMNs would never chose single target over aoe because aoe rotations do more dps though,

Hahahahahahahahahahahahah ah... hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahaaha

I can still burn them down faster single target on more occasion than not.

AoE rotations do *not* give you fire III procs. Why should a blm be forced to settle for up to 6-800 damage (or less) when I can crit for 2800+ from an instant spell while running to get to a new position. There are times with critting that I've done around 5k damage in less than a second because of the fire III proc and my BLM isn't even i120 yet.

If you think you are going to DPS higher with AoE vs proc... I would have to disagree with you (most of the time). Sometimes I get pretty lucky and get fire 3 procs 4 or 5 times in a row (ie fire - fire III proc - fire - fire III proc - fire - fire III proc, etc.) which can add up to a lot of damage in short order since it is an instant spell, and which I will say again, I can crit over 2800+ damage.

I will, though, still also use double/triple flares while using my preferred single target damage ;P