DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Welsper59]

snip

Uhh... yeah, there's a double standard. I've reaffirmed it myself in what I said and have never stated otherwise. What seems like defending bad players is actually a reason why things are how they are. You keep ignoring that though, I guess because I'm not literally saying that, word for word, like I just did now. I'm pointing out to you the reason the double standard exists (and will ALWAYS exist in the current setup of this game) and why merely adding a parser is not going to change a single meaningful thing. The tank/heal/dps exclusive setup will always put the spotlight on tanks and healers WAY more than DPS will ever see, as far as accountability goes. That is simply how we respond to the holy trinity setup (namely because its singling out a minimal number of players to fulfill an important role). Why basic design concept and the psychology behind how we treat it is difficult to grasp is beyond me... actually, it's not. It's expected on the internet lol.

Believe me, a parser is not going to suddenly change the majority of bad dps into decent ones. A handful, sure, but you'll still come across bad ones at nearly the same frequency. It's the nature of modern MMORPGs. They also won't suddenly be excellent DPS during your run as well. If they're not willing to put in the effort to begin with, which is honestly the more common case (i.e. not giving a damn to "learn" their rotations/priorities or they're just being lazy in their i130 gear), they won't care what you say even if you single them out. Calm down and clear your mind a bit, you might be able to read between the lines easier if you stop to think.

The witch hunt comment btw does not exclusively involve looking for people to kick. A witch hunt, in general, just means you're actively looking for someone to single out. I'm not claiming you're going to kick them or mistreat people, I'm just stating that you're going to be hunting for people doing something relatively harmless but not up to par, even if it may not be necessary to do so. There's no need to police your fellow players where it might not be needed. This is partly a dev philosophy as well, which is why we don't see heavy DPS checks in what we consider simple content.

[Malevicton]

If they're not willing to put in the effort to begin with, which is honestly the more common case (i.e. not giving a damn to "learn" their rotations/priorities or they're just being lazy in their i130 gear), they won't care what you say even if you single them out.

Yes. I don't think anyone's claiming that parsers will solve apathy. I only ever see anti-parse folks claiming to have heard that argument elsewhere (often from an ambiguously villainous elitist). But if you are making an active effort to improve then parsers are really handy. It's one thing to do your research; it's another thing entirely to apply that research. As it stands now, you just kinda have to hope that you're applying it the right way, and if you're not then to bad.

Also, as to the "clear your mind" bit: insulting someone's clarity usually does little to improve that clarity. You may want to make sure you are exemplifying your own advice before holding others to that standard.

[LunaHoshino]

As a DPS main myself, I resent the expectation that I should just shut up and carry underperforming DPS through content. Team content means that everyone should be pulling their own weight, not that one or two DPS should be doing 80% of the work.

And yes, if someone is in low-level gear but doing appropriate DPS for their gear, they are pulling their weight. Someone in i120 who is doing 200 DPS is very clearly not. Sure, you'll probably get through the dungeon just fine-- thanks to the other DPS, which is hardly fair to them.

[siverstorm]

snip

You can say I'm "ignoring it" all you want. A parser will help to bring it to light, but your responses say you don't want it because of the toxic nature that could come about it...which I'm saying is no better than the same attitude the other two thirds of your holy trinity experience. This is also bringing it to an extreme as if literally everyone is going to go on vote kick sprees. Me having an expectation of dps to hit their own 1-2-3 in the right order isn't much more than my expectations of a tank to hold aggro or a healer to heal. I don't go into dungeons and expect everyone to pull 600 dps...that's asinine.

If they were held accountable for it some would start to perform better bringing up the average. I shouldn't have to run into a dungeon and pray at least one of the dps can do their job at least semi-competently, but sad reality is that we have to. Maybe if no job was safe from scrutiny people would be more apt to playing tanks and healers.

No one is saying that a parser is going to magically improve everyone overnight. Originally I was only for the sanctioned parser in the content where it matters (ex and coil). But after the discussion brought the concept into trivial content every single one of your responses has boiled down to "the double standard exists just because". I dunno about you but any point you have falls flat without a real reason backing it up. In this situation we should just have the sanctioned parser for everything to reduce this double standard.

I am fairly calm, I just wish you had a valid reason to your counter argument.

[Welsper59]

Yes. I don't think anyone's claiming that parsers will solve apathy. I only ever see anti-parse folks claiming to have heard that argument elsewhere (often from an ambiguously villainous elitist). But if you are making an active effort to improve then parsers are really handy. It's one thing to do your research; it's another thing entirely to apply that research. As it stands now, you just kinda have to hope that you're applying it the right way, and if you're not then to bad.

Also, as to the "clear your mind" bit: insulting someone's clarity usually does little to improve that clarity. You may want to make sure you are exemplifying your own advice before holding others to that standard.

Yep, totally agree. I'd like to add though that parsers are still an acceptable practice privately (just not officially allowable). So I mean, going out to get the parser isn't exactly earth shattering for PC players, if their goal is to improve right now.

I mean, speaking from experience, I didn't bother with parsers in this game until several months ago. I knew my rotation and my numbers were pretty close to expected (got an extra ~40 DPS maybe after adjusting from parsing, so not exactly a big deal outside of Coil). Knowing your rotation/priorities, which is just guide related rather than crunching numbers, is usually enough to get the majority of your output going. Parsers typically serve to squeeze out that extra bit to perform as best as possible, instead of just "good". In the case of console players, seeking out a friend or something to help parse you isn't really difficult to do... it's no different than asking for help for any other thing you might do in this game. That's the way I see it, and I honestly think the way the devs/Yoshi-P see it. They seem to like to believe the player base doesn't need everything handed to them when the acceptable resources available aren't that much of a problem to pursue... I have my own pessimistic doubts on that glass half full perspective, but that's me lol.

As a DPS main myself, I resent the expectation that I should just shut up and carry underperforming DPS through content. Team content means that everyone should be pulling their own weight, not that one or two DPS should be doing 80% of the work.

And yes, if someone is in low-level gear but doing appropriate DPS for their gear, they are pulling their weight. Someone in i120 who is doing 200 DPS is very clearly not. Sure, you'll probably get through the dungeon just fine-- thanks to the other DPS, which is hardly fair to them.

Something to keep in mind is that, this person is likely new. If this were during the earlier days of ARR, their i120 would be... some i70 and a bunch of i55 probably. It's easier to get mad at new or ignorant DPS now, because we know what the potential is for said gear. The problem is that it's the exact same situation as that older one where the DPS would still be in i55+ gear, but people overlook that concern. Then again, there are also a lot of people that are just being lazy (this is probably the most common one we encounter). Unless you paid for clears, you're probably quite aware of how to play if you're in some Dreadwyrm or T9 stuff.

[Welsper59]

You can say I'm "ignoring it" all you want. A parser will help to bring it to light, but your responses say you don't want it because of the toxic nature that could come about it...which I'm saying is no better than the same attitude the other two thirds of your holy trinity experience. This is also bringing it to an extreme as if literally everyone is going to go on vote kick sprees. Me having an expectation of dps to hit their own 1-2-3 in the right order isn't much more than my expectations of a tank to hold aggro or a healer to heal. I don't go into dungeons and expect everyone to pull 600 dps...that's asinine.

If they were held accountable for it some would start to perform better bringing up the average. I shouldn't have to run into a dungeon and pray at least one of the dps can do their job at least semi-competently, but sad reality is that we have to. Maybe if no job was safe from scrutiny people would be more apt to playing tanks and healers.

No one is saying that a parser is going to magically improve everyone overnight. Originally I was only for the sanctioned parser in the content where it matters (ex and coil). But after the discussion brought the concept into trivial content every single one of your responses has boiled down to "the double standard exists just because". I dunno about you but any point you have falls flat without a real reason backing it up. In this situation we should just have the sanctioned parser for everything to reduce this double standard.

I am fairly calm, I just wish you had a valid reason to your counter argument.

I guess the way the mind works (i.e. science) is not valid with you people. That's fine. I mean, that's exactly how people/businesses can sway others to react to something in a desired way eventually lol. Many people wouldn't have jobs if that weren't the case. Again though, it's not about the vote kick thing, it's about the outcomes for the players personal impressions. I'm also not saying you're going to expect big numbers or anything.

I'm saying you'll literally take the time, if you don't already, to actively check if people are doing what they should as far as their performance is concerned... irrelevant to whether or not things are acceptably fine. That's a psychological habit though, so that's not surprising. Not just you, of course, but a great number of people will be taking the time to do the same unfortunately. DPS should be held accountable, but the perspective that people are literally going to be watching out for a bad DPS simply to judge, since it's not as obvious to judge like a tank or healers role, is already a bad thing. The old school way of determining problematic DPS, like harsh DPS checks all over the place, serves the role a lot better IMO. That unfortunately destroys the games direction though.

And I do agree that if scrutiny was not a possibility, people would be more apt to playing the more focused roles of tanks and healers. It is though, as I said, because the spotlight is defaulted to them (their roles are much more important than DPS usually and they're outnumbered).

[Malevicton]

The whole "don't talk about it" policy works well enough for people who know what's up, but it is very schizophrenic and confusing if you aren't already familiar with everything involved. I mean, how many threads have there been on here and on reddit from people asking for clarification? As a new player (and especially as a first-time MMO player) it's a frustratingly confusing situation. "yes it's bannable but you won't get banned" sounds more like someone trolling you than a legit dev response. It's not like allowing parsers means allowing harassment, so I don't see the point. For me it's just a minor inconvenience at worst, but it's an inconvenience that serves no function whatsoever.

Imo the question isn't why we should allow parsers, but why we aren't. Since there are already 3rd party parsers, it's even simpler to implement than the op thinks. They don't have to add anything -pre-existing system of otherwise- they just need to stop disallowing 3rd party parsers. It's literally a negative amount of work, so I feel like the burden of justification is on the anti-parse side of things.

[Welsper59]

The whole "don't talk about it" policy works well enough for people who know what's up, but it is very schizophrenic and confusing if you aren't already familiar with everything involved. I mean, how many threads have there been on here and on reddit from people asking for clarification? As a new player (and especially as a first-time MMO player) it's a frustratingly confusing situation. "yes it's bannable but you won't get banned" sounds more like someone trolling you than a legit dev response. It's not like allowing parsers means allowing harassment, so I don't see the point. For me it's just a minor inconvenience at worst, but it's an inconvenience that serves no function whatsoever.

Imo the question isn't why we should allow parsers, but why we aren't. Since there are already 3rd party parsers, it's even simpler to implement than the op thinks. They don't have to add anything -pre-existing system of otherwise- they just need to stop disallowing 3rd party parsers. It's literally a negative amount of work, so I feel like the burden of justification is on the anti-parse side of things.

See this argument, I really like. It's rather solid in justifying a personal dilemma based on impression, something you can't really deny or fault someone for, and one that does not actually involve others. In other words, when making a professional decision based on satisfaction, this is among the hardest parts to react to (e.g. GMs justifying a ban when dealing with legit players). There are a couple things in reply to it that I can think of, and this is just based on how business/design decisions works, as well as the typical sort of replies you'd officially get.

First and foremost, it's their final call and reasoning. It doesn't have to make sense, regardless of it being something you like or don't like. Consumers may not be happy about a situation, like not officially allowing parsers, and while people may complain... it's not a big deal, and the devs know it (deep down, so do the consumers). I mean, there's a reason people still happily play (for the most part lol), and parsing is probably not one of them for practically everyone.

The other is that in the case of 3rd party parsers, identifications are harder to deal with if you're looking to ONLY include damage reading programs (or other harmless uses). The ToS is a contract, which is a legally bound document. Any halfway decent legal department will stress how important wording, detail, and terminology is there. By opening the doors on 3rd party programs, it becomes harder to pursue action against misuse. If we allow 3rd party parsers, then problems arise like the issue with parsers detecting Hunt mob spawns a while back. People will always find loop holes, it's how things are. The solution to just make it an actual function of the game is one thing, sure... but then we go back to the first point. They have the final say, regardless of us knowing or understanding their reasons.

[Magusrex]

I disagree with anyone who says meters will not make a notable difference in DPS. In my experience anytime you keep score publicly on ANYTHING. People perform better, most of us have some pride. I think the strenuous objection you see to them tells much of the story. As a healer I can tell with absolute certainty that there are people who are doing practically nothing. Those people deserve to their performance to be shown for everyone to see. It is beyond incompetence it is, you will carry me.

In a 4/8 man run on your way to the 1st boss if the tank can't hold aggro on trash or the boss, can't move mobs where he is supposed to, he gets called out or replaced. If healer lets people repeatedly die...same deal. You are all OK with that. If a DPS or two is performing apathetically it becomes a large burden on others and can cause wipes. Right now we have to guess to figure out who the problem is. It isn't fair and it isn't right. Apathetically bad players can comfortably hide right now as DPS. I am of the opinion just publically making meters available will fix a large part of this and I say the loud opposition to the possible inclusion of meters is evidence. If people didn't care about others knowing how bad they are, If there was zero opposition, you could make the argument they would have no impact....The size and magnitude of the voice against convinces me of their impact, they don't want be outed, they don't want to lose their free ride.

[FrejyaAthenes]

I disagree with anyone who says meters will not make a notable difference in DPS. In my experience anytime you keep score publicly on ANYTHING. People perform better, most of us have some pride. I think the strenuous objection you see to them tells much of the story. As a healer I can tell with absolute certainty that there are people who are doing practically nothing. Those people deserve to their performance to be shown for everyone to see. It is beyond incompetence it is, you will carry me.

In a 4/8 man run on your way to the 1st boss if the tank can't hold aggro on trash or the boss, can't move mobs where he is supposed to, he gets called out or replaced. If healer lets people repeatedly die...same deal. You are all OK with that. If a DPS or two is performing apathetically it becomes a large burden on others and can cause wipes. Right now we have to guess to figure out who the problem is. It isn't fair and it isn't right. Apathetically bad players can comfortably hide right now as DPS. I am of the opinion just publically making meters available will fix a large part of this and I say the loud opposition to the possible inclusion of meters is evidence. If people didn't care about others knowing how bad they are, If there was zero opposition, you could make the argument they would have no impact....The size and magnitude of the voice against convinces me of their impact, they don't want be outed, they don't want to lose their free ride.

Funny enough, before I didn't really care about parsers but it's been topics/arguements like this that have made me pick a side. If parsers are truly a way to facilitate improvement among damagers and, twelve willing, actually bring some simblance of respect or even acceptance back to the role, then I'm all for it. You yourself say that people have pride, right? Well my philosophy is that in order to have pride/confidence in yourself, you must first have something worth having pride/confidence in. In other words, pride is a right you have to earn. You don't just get it by being. If other damagers are complacent in being treated as expendable, interchangable pawns at best and parasites at worst then that's fine, just don't drag the image of people that actually want to excel down with you. Those who can/will better themselves through parsers will and those that won't won't, simple as that. If they get kicked from parties due to poor performance they can form their or work to improve themselves.

Also, consider this, parses can not only be used as a sword against dps but a shield too. Say there's someone in your party who doesn't like your rotation and calls you out on it, but if your numbers are good enough you can use them validate your methods.
There's probably more but I don't like to get ranty. Plus that speech looked like the MMO equivilant of a villain's "Survival of the Fittest" speech.