DPS display could easily be solved with a system already in game.

[Welsper59]

Yes. I don't think anyone's claiming that parsers will solve apathy. I only ever see anti-parse folks claiming to have heard that argument elsewhere (often from an ambiguously villainous elitist). But if you are making an active effort to improve then parsers are really handy. It's one thing to do your research; it's another thing entirely to apply that research. As it stands now, you just kinda have to hope that you're applying it the right way, and if you're not then to bad.

Also, as to the "clear your mind" bit: insulting someone's clarity usually does little to improve that clarity. You may want to make sure you are exemplifying your own advice before holding others to that standard.

Yep, totally agree. I'd like to add though that parsers are still an acceptable practice privately (just not officially allowable). So I mean, going out to get the parser isn't exactly earth shattering for PC players, if their goal is to improve right now.

I mean, speaking from experience, I didn't bother with parsers in this game until several months ago. I knew my rotation and my numbers were pretty close to expected (got an extra ~40 DPS maybe after adjusting from parsing, so not exactly a big deal outside of Coil). Knowing your rotation/priorities, which is just guide related rather than crunching numbers, is usually enough to get the majority of your output going. Parsers typically serve to squeeze out that extra bit to perform as best as possible, instead of just "good". In the case of console players, seeking out a friend or something to help parse you isn't really difficult to do... it's no different than asking for help for any other thing you might do in this game. That's the way I see it, and I honestly think the way the devs/Yoshi-P see it. They seem to like to believe the player base doesn't need everything handed to them when the acceptable resources available aren't that much of a problem to pursue... I have my own pessimistic doubts on that glass half full perspective, but that's me lol.

As a DPS main myself, I resent the expectation that I should just shut up and carry underperforming DPS through content. Team content means that everyone should be pulling their own weight, not that one or two DPS should be doing 80% of the work.

And yes, if someone is in low-level gear but doing appropriate DPS for their gear, they are pulling their weight. Someone in i120 who is doing 200 DPS is very clearly not. Sure, you'll probably get through the dungeon just fine-- thanks to the other DPS, which is hardly fair to them.

Something to keep in mind is that, this person is likely new. If this were during the earlier days of ARR, their i120 would be... some i70 and a bunch of i55 probably. It's easier to get mad at new or ignorant DPS now, because we know what the potential is for said gear. The problem is that it's the exact same situation as that older one where the DPS would still be in i55+ gear, but people overlook that concern. Then again, there are also a lot of people that are just being lazy (this is probably the most common one we encounter). Unless you paid for clears, you're probably quite aware of how to play if you're in some Dreadwyrm or T9 stuff.

[LunaHoshino]

As a DPS main myself, I resent the expectation that I should just shut up and carry underperforming DPS through content. Team content means that everyone should be pulling their own weight, not that one or two DPS should be doing 80% of the work.

And yes, if someone is in low-level gear but doing appropriate DPS for their gear, they are pulling their weight. Someone in i120 who is doing 200 DPS is very clearly not. Sure, you'll probably get through the dungeon just fine-- thanks to the other DPS, which is hardly fair to them.

[Malevicton]

The whole "don't talk about it" policy works well enough for people who know what's up, but it is very schizophrenic and confusing if you aren't already familiar with everything involved. I mean, how many threads have there been on here and on reddit from people asking for clarification? As a new player (and especially as a first-time MMO player) it's a frustratingly confusing situation. "yes it's bannable but you won't get banned" sounds more like someone trolling you than a legit dev response. It's not like allowing parsers means allowing harassment, so I don't see the point. For me it's just a minor inconvenience at worst, but it's an inconvenience that serves no function whatsoever.

Imo the question isn't why we should allow parsers, but why we aren't. Since there are already 3rd party parsers, it's even simpler to implement than the op thinks. They don't have to add anything -pre-existing system of otherwise- they just need to stop disallowing 3rd party parsers. It's literally a negative amount of work, so I feel like the burden of justification is on the anti-parse side of things.

[Welsper59]

The whole "don't talk about it" policy works well enough for people who know what's up, but it is very schizophrenic and confusing if you aren't already familiar with everything involved. I mean, how many threads have there been on here and on reddit from people asking for clarification? As a new player (and especially as a first-time MMO player) it's a frustratingly confusing situation. "yes it's bannable but you won't get banned" sounds more like someone trolling you than a legit dev response. It's not like allowing parsers means allowing harassment, so I don't see the point. For me it's just a minor inconvenience at worst, but it's an inconvenience that serves no function whatsoever.

Imo the question isn't why we should allow parsers, but why we aren't. Since there are already 3rd party parsers, it's even simpler to implement than the op thinks. They don't have to add anything -pre-existing system of otherwise- they just need to stop disallowing 3rd party parsers. It's literally a negative amount of work, so I feel like the burden of justification is on the anti-parse side of things.

See this argument, I really like. It's rather solid in justifying a personal dilemma based on impression, something you can't really deny or fault someone for, and one that does not actually involve others. In other words, when making a professional decision based on satisfaction, this is among the hardest parts to react to (e.g. GMs justifying a ban when dealing with legit players). There are a couple things in reply to it that I can think of, and this is just based on how business/design decisions works, as well as the typical sort of replies you'd officially get.

First and foremost, it's their final call and reasoning. It doesn't have to make sense, regardless of it being something you like or don't like. Consumers may not be happy about a situation, like not officially allowing parsers, and while people may complain... it's not a big deal, and the devs know it (deep down, so do the consumers). I mean, there's a reason people still happily play (for the most part lol), and parsing is probably not one of them for practically everyone.

The other is that in the case of 3rd party parsers, identifications are harder to deal with if you're looking to ONLY include damage reading programs (or other harmless uses). The ToS is a contract, which is a legally bound document. Any halfway decent legal department will stress how important wording, detail, and terminology is there. By opening the doors on 3rd party programs, it becomes harder to pursue action against misuse. If we allow 3rd party parsers, then problems arise like the issue with parsers detecting Hunt mob spawns a while back. People will always find loop holes, it's how things are. The solution to just make it an actual function of the game is one thing, sure... but then we go back to the first point. They have the final say, regardless of us knowing or understanding their reasons.

[Magusrex]

I disagree with anyone who says meters will not make a notable difference in DPS. In my experience anytime you keep score publicly on ANYTHING. People perform better, most of us have some pride. I think the strenuous objection you see to them tells much of the story. As a healer I can tell with absolute certainty that there are people who are doing practically nothing. Those people deserve to their performance to be shown for everyone to see. It is beyond incompetence it is, you will carry me.

In a 4/8 man run on your way to the 1st boss if the tank can't hold aggro on trash or the boss, can't move mobs where he is supposed to, he gets called out or replaced. If healer lets people repeatedly die...same deal. You are all OK with that. If a DPS or two is performing apathetically it becomes a large burden on others and can cause wipes. Right now we have to guess to figure out who the problem is. It isn't fair and it isn't right. Apathetically bad players can comfortably hide right now as DPS. I am of the opinion just publically making meters available will fix a large part of this and I say the loud opposition to the possible inclusion of meters is evidence. If people didn't care about others knowing how bad they are, If there was zero opposition, you could make the argument they would have no impact....The size and magnitude of the voice against convinces me of their impact, they don't want be outed, they don't want to lose their free ride.

[FrejyaAthenes]

I disagree with anyone who says meters will not make a notable difference in DPS. In my experience anytime you keep score publicly on ANYTHING. People perform better, most of us have some pride. I think the strenuous objection you see to them tells much of the story. As a healer I can tell with absolute certainty that there are people who are doing practically nothing. Those people deserve to their performance to be shown for everyone to see. It is beyond incompetence it is, you will carry me.

In a 4/8 man run on your way to the 1st boss if the tank can't hold aggro on trash or the boss, can't move mobs where he is supposed to, he gets called out or replaced. If healer lets people repeatedly die...same deal. You are all OK with that. If a DPS or two is performing apathetically it becomes a large burden on others and can cause wipes. Right now we have to guess to figure out who the problem is. It isn't fair and it isn't right. Apathetically bad players can comfortably hide right now as DPS. I am of the opinion just publically making meters available will fix a large part of this and I say the loud opposition to the possible inclusion of meters is evidence. If people didn't care about others knowing how bad they are, If there was zero opposition, you could make the argument they would have no impact....The size and magnitude of the voice against convinces me of their impact, they don't want be outed, they don't want to lose their free ride.

Funny enough, before I didn't really care about parsers but it's been topics/arguements like this that have made me pick a side. If parsers are truly a way to facilitate improvement among damagers and, twelve willing, actually bring some simblance of respect or even acceptance back to the role, then I'm all for it. You yourself say that people have pride, right? Well my philosophy is that in order to have pride/confidence in yourself, you must first have something worth having pride/confidence in. In other words, pride is a right you have to earn. You don't just get it by being. If other damagers are complacent in being treated as expendable, interchangable pawns at best and parasites at worst then that's fine, just don't drag the image of people that actually want to excel down with you. Those who can/will better themselves through parsers will and those that won't won't, simple as that. If they get kicked from parties due to poor performance they can form their or work to improve themselves.

Also, consider this, parses can not only be used as a sword against dps but a shield too. Say there's someone in your party who doesn't like your rotation and calls you out on it, but if your numbers are good enough you can use them validate your methods.
There's probably more but I don't like to get ranty. Plus that speech looked like the MMO equivilant of a villain's "Survival of the Fittest" speech.

[Magusrex]

Also, consider this, parses can not only be used as a sword against dps but a shield too. Say there's someone in your party who doesn't like your rotation and calls you out on it, but if your numbers are good enough you can use them validate your methods.
There's probably more but I don't like to get ranty. Plus that speech looked like the MMO equivilant of a villain's "Survival of the Fittest" speech.

That would be awesome, all I care about is that people make an effort to carry themselves, they don't have to do it my or your way, as long as they try, I don't care how they get results, If they are getting them differently than I am , I get to learn something too win and win.

[MirielleLavandre]

I'm surprised this hasn't come up, but I think one reason why FF14, a Japanese game, doesn't really support parsers and such, is because it is expected that people will do their very best when they sign up for Duty Finder in JPN. It is shameful to show up to a trial/raid/dungeon with complete strangers, and perform poorly or be a detriment to the group. As many have noted, it is the idea that every single player needs to take responsibility for their own performance and not let down the group. None of this "I play how I want, even if I'm in i130 doing 200dps" -- rather, it is usually (not always, of course) "I play to the best of my ability so as not to be a hindrance to others in my group and ashamed of my own performance".

I'm not saying that parses or not are a cultural difference -- but I am pointing out that in many respects Japanese players, where this game is developed, will generally not need parsers to tell them they are doing badly. They know it, they take care of it, and they do all of this before entering into a public Duty Finder party so as not to disgrace themselves and let others down. NA, on the other hand, I've not seen quite this level of personal responsibility.

*Note - I know the major world first JPN groups parse - as is needed when doing cutting edge progression w/ no echo or overgearing*
*I'm Asian, myself, and yes -- the whole group before individual is very much a part of the culture ^^*

[Seig345]

Personally, now that I'm starting to play DPS more (mainly a healer), I wouldn't mind an end-of-encounter window that shows what the DPS was for just the DPS in the group. Doesn't need to show the class/job, or the names, just the scores and which one's mine.

Maybe not even scores, just a pop up saying where I stood compared to the other 3-4 dps in my party. Then I can just strive not to be in 4th/5th place. (or maybe that plus just my own dps score)

[SDaemon]

The requirements, DPS checks, mechanics in other games are different. Raiding in XIV is not the same as raiding in Hello Kitty Island online. Your raiding/parsing experience in this game is only applicable to this conversation.

Like I said to you and the many naysayers. Not pushing content until it's nerfed is not a bad thing. But you're obviously lacking a perspective when coming into this conversation when you haven't experienced the requirement to meet a strict DPS check.

No it really isn't. That you think that my experience in this game is the only way to have a valid opinion on parsers is ridiculous and absurd.

I don't lack the perspective. You simply refuse to accept that my experience is in other mmos, because you can't understand that parsers are not limited to just xiv.

Your entire premise to refuse someone's stance in this way is horribly flawed and just makes you look like a fool.