Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

[Antipika]

This game on the other hand is so far unsuccessful and seems to be taking every action possible to not create a dynamic large adventurous lore-heavy world and instead create a game of instant gratification (kind of like just instancing everything).


while immersion is personal, its all but non existent in a game where you don't actually have a world or heavy story. When you just log on, warp somewhere, kill things, or log on sit down and 1 button for 10 hours to craft, you aren't immersed in any way. You are just doing a repetitive task much a like something people would pay a factory worker to do.

Well travel time on XI was "ok" at first, when you discover the game, enjoy the Airhsip music, discover that monsters can spawn, get killed on the Airship and raised by someone etc. But after a while ? All people were doing was AFK'ing until the ship gets there, then AFK more during travel.

That's surely immersive...

I don't see the issue with instances as well... XI had tons, never been an issue. Would you call Salvage, xNMs, Assault, Nyzul not immersive just because they were instanced? What about private (not technically instanced, still reserved) areas like Dynamis, Limbus where there was only people you know in? We all did this, no one complained that it made the game "less immersive" because instanced.

[Rhomagus]

this thread isn't about airships its about instant travel in general first of all.

Airships becoming instant are just a missed opportunityI've provided actual content for that oppurtunity at this link: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Content-Ideas.. You have a game which has a storyline heavily centered on the skies. Garlemald is powerful because of their flying juggernauts, and Ishguard is fighting giant dragons.

So instead of integrating sky fights and stuff into the game you make the 1 air-related thing instant....No one has yet to suggest this. You are putting words into peoples' mouths again. My link provides actual content related to sky fights while preserving a risk/reward mechanic for choosing each available option.

But again, the point is the overall problem of instant travel and not just the airshipProvide examples of content that we can choose to do or not to do between destinations and then we'll talk. A true immersionist still has the choice not to instant travel.. FFXI had instant travel done rightOpinion, and poorly supported.. FFXIV has instant travel done lazyHow so?, and as such it makes FFXIV's world seem -dead-Lack of content makes the world seem dead but there isn't a lack of content, at least to me.

There is plenty of content in the game in order to be immersed. The developers did implement these little things but the immersionists in this thread are unwilling to do the leg work in order to experience that.

There's a frog near Phaia that only appears during rainstorms in the Black Shroud. A lot of people didn't even know little Ala Mhigo existed despite it being written on the map in Eorzean. There's a giant glowing mushroom monument in the Black Shroud. An NPC by the name Immodest Mouse says in the opening lines of his text: The ocean breathes salty.

None of those little things would be experienced if the immersionist did not seek them out. Immerison is not a one way street nor should it be forced on players. This is even more true as the medium is more interactive. Less true for less interactive mediums but I've given an example in my post earlier of how even less interactive mediums utilized choice in order to add immersion.

Isn't that the whole point of exploration. Forcing exploration on people defeats the merits of exploration in the first place.

[Azurymber]

Well travel time on XI was "ok" at first, when you discover the game, enjoy the Airhsip music, discover that monsters can spawn, get killed on the Airship and raised by someone etc. But after a while ? All people were doing was AFK'ing until the ship gets there, then AFK more during travel.

That's surely immersive...

I don't see the issue with instances as well... XI had tons, never been an issue. Would you call Salvage, xNMs, Assault, Nyzul not immersive just because they were instanced? What about private (not technically instanced, still reserved) areas like Dynamis, Limbus where there was only people you know in? We all did this, no one complained that it made the game "less immersive" because instanced.

i agree with you... XI was balanced, It had both open world content, created reason for people to actually -be- in the open world, and had well implemented instanced content.

XIV is instancing too much, and making it so you dont need to travel anywhere. As a result the world is dead, and will stay dead. Theres no reason for people to run around or to go certain places unless they are a DoL. Leves are repetitive so you always go to the same spots. etc.

In FFXI when you ran through the world it was alive, there were people doing different things from leveling, to nm hunting, to chocobo digging, to gathering, to fishing, etc.

In FFXIV when you run through the world its dead, until you get to a leve. And then the part associated with that leves quest may have people. But that means that people end up using maybe 10% max of the entire world and the rest is essentially filler space.

A lot of people here obviously like that. they aren't fans of an open world and would prefer to just have everything instanced. But that isn't what FF's are known for or good at. FF's are based around story and having dynamic open worlds. Look how many people raged at FF13 being so linear (even though it was a great game). If SE wants to make FFXIV successful they need to play to their strengths and not try to create something completely out of their comfort zone that mimics the big western successes.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

you can't use the "ffxiv isnt fully redeveloped" argument anymore. Its been a year. People like you will make this same argument a year from now when the game is still free....

If you are a company with a successful product, you copy the parts that were successful and throw away the parts that were unsuccessful, thus resulting in a -more- successful product. Thats fairly logical.....
FFXI was a success. To ignore it and make a game that is the complete opposite and then wonder why it falls on its face is ridiculous. I don't see why anyone thinks a team that couldn't fix a game in a year will magically turn things around in a few months and make a game a hit success? Thats not realistic -at all-.

If you want to do the great comparison thing. If you compare FFXI to other MMOs it was not extremely successful. It was just successful enough to sustain itself and relied on a niche following.

and actually, you can say that FFXIV is in redevelopment because it simply is. You already said it in your post. The game is free to play. When it steps out of that is supposedly when it is deemed a complete and fully redeveloped game worthy of a monthly charge. Until that day comes, I can't see how you can argue what FFXIV is when it isn't yet. Meaning, you can't argue what the game will be in almost half of it's redevelopment.

You are not being very helpful in terms of giving this game your feedback, but that is just my opinion. :P

[Azurymber]

There is plenty of content in the game in order to be immersed. The developers did implement these little things but the immersionists in this thread are unwilling to do the leg work in order to experience that.

There's a frog near Phaia that only appears during rainstorms in the Black Shroud. A lot of people didn't even know little Ala Mhigo existed despite it being written on the map in Eorzean. There's a giant glowing mushroom monument in the Black Shroud. An NPC by the name Immodest Mouse says in the opening lines of his text: The ocean breathes salty.

None of those little things would be experienced if the immersionist did not seek them out. Immerison is not a one way street nor should it be forced on players. This is even more true as the medium is more interactive. Less true for less interactive mediums but I've given an example in my post earlier of how even less interactive mediums utilized choice in order to add immersion.

Isn't that the whole point of exploration. Forcing exploration on people defeats the merits of exploration in the first place.

i like and support your thread for airship ideas, but part of an immersive world is doing things with random people. And if you make airships an instance, that can never really happen. By instancing everything and not creating open random content you force players into niche linkshells and make it difficult for a new player to fit in. When you have open content (selbina-mhuara ferry, moat carp fishing, etc) you create avenues to make friends and improve the game. Behests were a great idea, and have now been essentially ruined.

and while i understand the argument for choice. A game that has failed needs to pull people in and GIVE them a reason to play. Presenting an open invitation for people to explore and choose how to experience a failed game won't work because they will just feel like they are exploring a dead world and playing a single player game and give up quickly for a game with an actual dynamic living world.

[Rhomagus]

you can't use the "ffxiv isnt fully redeveloped" argument anymore. Its been a year. People like you will make this same argument a year from now when the game is still free....

If you are a company with a successful product, you copy the parts that were successful and throw away the parts that were unsuccessfulI agree., thus resulting in a -more- successful productI agree.. Thats fairly logicalYes it is......
FFXI was a successThat depends on perspective but I'd agree with that particular assesment.. To ignore it and make a game that is the complete opposite and then wonder why it falls on its face is ridiculousI think we've covered this "complete opposite" argument before and XIV is FAR from complete opposite. Some would argue with how much of it is a clone.. I don't see why anyone thinks a team that couldn't fix a game in a year will magically turn things around in a few months and make a game a hit success?Did you play pre and post patch 1.18. Maybe your server is still light but Besaid is booming, particularly with new players. People are getting excited about the new direction. Naoki Yoshida has been getting a lot of praise for his new direction and his openness to the community. He did a lot of things differently than XI in those regards. Thats not realistic -at all-.People are forcing arbitrary deadlines on the team. Unfortunately it was this same mentality which could've "caused" so many of the original teams problems.

I have yet to see someone claim that this game will be turned around by the end of the year. I do see people doomsdaying about the release of other AAA MMO's but those two concepts aren't one in the same. That's an entirely different discussion though.

[Rhomagus]

i like and support your thread for airship ideas, but part of an immersive world is doing things with random people. And if you make airships an instance, that can never really happen.This is objectively and verifiably false. I've done Toto-Rak with random people. I've done Dzemael Darkhold with random people. By instancing everything and not creating open random content you force players into niche linkshells and make it difficult for a new player to fit inNot all of the airship options are instanced nor instant. The proposal provides a wide variety of content choices.. When you have open content (selbina-mhuara ferryFishers on the fairy and immersionists can get together., moat carp fishingXIV has fishing., etc) you create avenues to make friends and improve the game. Behests were a great idea, and have now been essentially ruinedMy experience with behests pre 8 person party cap were. Attack, Attack Attack Attack Attack, heal, Attack Attack done. {Thanks for the party!}{Let's party again sometime!} It still continues on today even post 8 person party cap..

and while i understand the argument for choice. A game that has failed needs to pull people in and GIVE them a reason to playOpening tutorials and clear cut storyline objectives can provide this. Restricting freedom does not and in most cases, as has been stated by others in this thread, forcing people to waste time only motivates them to utilize it otherwise. Either through making an AFK sammich, or playing a different game.. Presenting an open invitation for people to explore and choose how to experience a failed game won't work because they will just feel like they are exploring a dead world and playing a single player game and give up quickly for a game with an actual dynamic living worldRestricting a human's time by forcing arbitrary requirements that are not necessary are sure fire ways to get people to log off and then the game will truly be dead..

You're conceptual content of a dynamic living world is present in offline games. My concept of a dynamic living world is focused on players and choice. XIV is focused on player choice.

Yoshida is focused on player choice. I quoted it in the post I made earlier.

Here it is again:

Yoshida: So if you ask what makes FFXIV special, it’s that you can be by yourself, play in a small party, play in a big party, play any class, play differently on the weekends or weekdays, the community size, and the way parties are going that day…. It doesn’t matter because there is so much you can choose from. The job system will be added which just means you could also team up with your friends and enjoy playing as certain jobs. I think all of that is what will make FFXIV different.

He seems to always take the words out of my mouth.

[weeble]

Yoshida: Regarding battle duration, will make it shorter. With solo same level monster should be about 40 seconds, with good equipment about 30 seconds each. This is possible due to the deformation the skills and keeping it close to reality. In other MMORPG you can defeat in 10-15 seconds but looking at FFXIV character size, animation, number of key frames can’t make it that extreme. But would like to make it for showing damage or smoother fighting. We have Takai from Saga series and Minagawa too (laugh)


Yoshida: For traveling I believe it should be little bit easier, but that doesn’t mean it’s fun you can travel anywhere, so have to think about this. Also for durability we need to look at it as game content so just because it has bad reputation it doesn’t mean we should get rid of it right away.


ok, wtf ...so they gonna give us and keep these fast dynamicless mobs we can kill quick, and then call traveling content? what ....the ...frak ...what are they thinking with these 2 statements they made, hey u can level up fast as crap but hey take a long walk it is part of the content? i'm so annoyed at reading these 2 statements on the same famitsu.

also the games that kill mobs in 15 seconds every fight feels the same from start to finish and that is what devs for ffxiv want? ...this game has nothing the others can give us on top of this. ...i just don't get how they can be serious.

[Rhomagus]

i agree with you... XI was balanced, It had both open world content, created reason for people to actually -be- in the open world, and had well implemented instanced content.

XIV is instancing too much

Two instances? That's less than XI.

, and making it so you dont need to travel anywhere.You obviously don't do crafting leves. As a result the world is deadYou're blind., and will stay deadAnd seem adamant on staying blind.. Theres no reason for people to run around or to go certain places unless they are a DoLOr crafters who do leves. Or for the immersive exploration. You fight in Mistbeard Cove yet? Whose fault is it that you haven't if you haven't?. Leves are repetitive so you always go to the same spotsSo suggest that they change them accordingly instead of forcing other people to needlessly waste their time when that is not their objective.. etc.

In FFXI when you ran through the world it was aliveSo is XIV. You have blinders on. And even in XI what was it like starting in Bastok post Aht Urghan pre Wings of the Goddess. Even then the people that were in the towns for that were way too far in level to be playing with new players., there were people doing different things from levelingYou can do this in XIV., to nm huntingYou can do this in XIV., to chocobo diggingYou'll be able to do more than this in XIV, to gatheringTHERE'S A WHOLE SET OF CLASSES DEDICATED TO THIS, WHICH IS MORE THAN XI'S HALF ASSED IMPLEMENTATION., to fishingUgh..., etc.

In FFXIV when you run through the world its deadIt's only because the population has dwindled and I promise you it didn't dwindle because people weren't forced to "stop and smell the roses.", until you get to a leve. And then the part associated with that leves quest may have people. But that means that people end up using maybe 10% max of the entire world and the rest is essentially filler spaceFor you to explore. Also, the redesign should also fix this. Filler is copy pasta'd terrain not space without people, there's a huge difference..

A lot of people here obviously like that. they aren't fans of an open world and would prefer to just have everything instancedWe can not instance it and open it up for RMT manipulation and greifing if you'd prefer.. But that isn't what FF's are known for or good atHow many FF MMOs are there again? How would an instance be described... say.. in Final Fantasy VII: A place you go to where you can't be bothered by other players or the surrounding world... um aka: single player adventure/random battles, a staple Final Fantasy mechanic from I-X? C'mon.. FF's are based around story and having dynamic open worldsThis changing based on a linear story structure is less dynamic than XIV.. Look how many people raged at FF13 being so linear (even though it was a great game). If SE wants to make FFXIV successful they need to play to their strengths and not try to create something completely out of their comfort zone that mimics the big western successes.The other option is Korean grind fest or beautiful timesink. Honestly, I'll take Naoki Yoshida's design philosophy over yours anyday. Not to mention they can create a beautiful dynamic world whilst maintaining player freedom.

Your criticisms can be answered without forcing players to do anything. I suggest you look at those options first.

[Azurymber]

Your criticisms can be answered without forcing players to do anything. I suggest you look at those options first.

all your arguments are basically that there doesn't need to be any feel to the world. Its ok to be the only one on an airship. Its ok to have parts of the world dead cuz its copy and paste. People can choose to go to places and level inefficiently if they want, etc.

Click my guide thingys in my sig. I've been to -every- zone in the game, -every- node, prettty well every little corner and niche spot on every map regardless of 1-shot kill mobs being there. When i made that guide 95% of the time i was the only person in the area i was experimenting with AND saw -no one- for hours.

Im not saying take away options, im saying streamline the game to create an experience rather than rely on the players to take the initiative and create the experience themselves.

That means
1. when your levelling you should see people running by you (even if on chocobo) occasionally
2. you should have to touch leves before you can warp there, and journeys to leves should be somewhat challenging
3. there should be a sense of accomplishment when you level up, like it makes the rest of the game more accessible to you, etc.
4. you should be able to partake in activities which proactively allow players to communicate and form friendships

if you don't want a game like that and just want an instance-fest or no world why are you playing an MMO? why not just go play oblivion? The concept of an MMO is to socialize and meet people and do things together. Not "warp here, kill nm for 5 min, warp back to city, spam normal synth for 5 hours"