Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

[Bled]

And I'm back. Here you go.

I do not know why you think Immersion is subjective but here i will quote myself back slew of pages with what psychological gaming immersion is.

Immersion aka Spacial Presence

Completeness of sensory information (aka visuals) means that the fewer imperfections about the mental model of the game world that the player has to fill in, the better like big arrows for quests, and instant teleports with no travel time to speak of. Abstractions (there are no people in this town because of, uh, a genocide!) are the enemy of immersion. Assassin’s Creed 2 was immersive because its towns were filled with people who looked like they were doing people stuff, actual daily tasks. Dealing in a familiar environment also allows everyone to comfortably make assumptions about those blank spaces without being pulled out of the world to think about it like copy pasting areas over and over again in FF14. Knowing that the world is not a copy paste but rather a different piece of a puzzle allows you to be more immersed in the game.

Cognitively demanding environments where you stop and think causes the player base to focus on what’s going on and getting by in the game will tie up mental resources. This is good for immersion, because if the brain is used for understanding or moving around in the world, it’s not free to notice all its problems or shortcomings that would otherwise remind them that they’re playing a game like instant teleport forces on people.

Finally, a strong and interesting narrative, plot, or story will suck you in every time no matter who you are. In fact, it’s pretty much the only thing in a book’s arsenal for creating immersion and look at the long running of books! it works in games too! Good stories attract attention to the game and make the world seem more believable. They also tie up those mental resources I spoke of earlier in avoiding notice of other game flaws.

Your aspect of immersion you keep bringing up "ideling" is a portion of time were you are taking in sensory information allowing you to use more of those mental resources. Today's crowd of gamers is so impatient, so greedy, and so ignorant that they cant help but not appreciate immersion; does this lack of patience and appreciation of quality come from something outside of the gaming world, yes i do believe so... i pin this on American culture.

I just don't understand how a person of your intellectual prowess could think that immersion can not be measure and defined aka subjective. I do not agree with your statement "Content can add immersion. Immersion for immersion sake is not content", Content does not all ways add immersion for instance insta porting is content and yet creates no immersion. yet you are correct immersion is developed in a game through content so you can not have immersion without content; Immersion is a product of content, however content can have no immersion.

they don't need to be balanced, mechanics breed immersion. Like i said mechanics do not always breed immersion.

there is a communication breakdown here and I should've been more descriptive. yep i agree with that.

I'm taking the photograph of the earth with the hubble telescope. You're taking a photograph of the place you live. i do not agree with this and again maybe this was a result in a communication break down. I am advocating IMMERSION! in Final Fantasy 14 not the whole game, in this discussion. When i stated you are not looking at the big picture i meant you are disregarding a legitimate game mechanic (immersion) all together by stating it is a subjective mechanic.

You can't, you'll have losses. I'm okay with these losses as an open game will be conducive to more people's interests as they'll be able to access it more. Yes and when you open your self up for more interests you can shut everyone out at the same time. It is just not smart marketing to try and target every demographic and expect to even please half of each demographic thus resulting in profit, that is just not realistic. "We got a rushed product, not a half assed one." It was half assed because it was rushed, but even still how do you define rushed seeing as Hiromichi Tanaka had 5 years to develop the game.. and a previous game under his belt. When you target to many demographics you are more apt to create a sloppy product. Simple marketing strategy you play to your strengths and you develop a product that has a target demographic not all demographics...

[Rhomagus]

I do not know why you think Immersion is subjective but here i will quote myself back slew of pages with what psychological gaming immersion is.

Immersion aka Spacial Presence

Completeness of sensory information (aka visuals) means that the fewer imperfections about the mental model of the game world that the player has to fill in, the better like big arrows for quests, and instant teleports with no travel time to speak of. Abstractions (there are no people in this town because of, uh, a genocide!) are the enemy of immersion. Assassin’s Creed 2 was immersive because its towns were filled with people who looked like they were doing people stuff, actual daily tasks. Dealing in a familiar environment also allows everyone to comfortably make assumptions about those blank spaces without being pulled out of the world to think about it like copy pasting areas over and over again in FF14. Knowing that the world is not a copy paste but rather a different piece of a puzzle allows you to be more immersed in the game.

Cognitively demanding environments where you stop and think causes the player base to focus on what’s going on and getting by in the game will tie up mental resources. This is good for immersion, because if the brain is used for understanding or moving around in the world, it’s not free to notice all its problems or shortcomings that would otherwise remind them that they’re playing a game like instant teleport forces on people.

Finally, a strong and interesting narrative, plot, or story will suck you in every time no matter who you are. In fact, it’s pretty much the only thing in a book’s arsenal for creating immersion and look at the long running of books! it works in games too! Good stories attract attention to the game and make the world seem more believable. They also tie up those mental resources I spoke of earlier in avoiding notice of other game flaws.

Your aspect of immersion you keep bringing up "ideling" is a portion of time were you are taking in sensory information allowing you to use more of those mental resources. Today's crowd of gamers is so impatient, so greedy, and so ignorant that they cant help but not appreciate immersion; does this lack of patience and appreciation of quality come from something outside of the gaming world, yes i do believe so... i pin this on American culture.

I just don't understand how a person of your intellectual prowess could think that immersion can not be measure and defined aka subjective. I do not agree with your statement "Content can add immersion. Immersion for immersion sake is not content", Content does not all ways add immersion for instance insta porting is content and yet creates no immersion. yet you are correct immersion is developed in a game through content so you can not have immersion without content; Immersion is a product of content, however content can have no immersion.

they don't need to be balanced, mechanics breed immersion. Like i said mechanics do not always breed immersion.

there is a communication breakdown here and I should've been more descriptive. yep i agree with that.

I'm taking the photograph of the earth with the hubble telescope. You're taking a photograph of the place you live. i do not agree with this and again maybe this was a result in a communication break down. I am advocating IMMERSION! in Final Fantasy 14 not the whole game, in this discussion. When i stated you are not looking at the big picture i meant you are disregarding a legitimate game mechanic (immersion) all together by stating it is a subjective mechanic.

You can't, you'll have losses. I'm okay with these losses as an open game will be conducive to more people's interests as they'll be able to access it more. Yes and when you open your self up for more interests you can shut everyone out at the same time. It is just not smart marketing to try and target every demographic and expect to even please half of each demographic thus resulting in profit, that is just not realistic. "We got a rushed product, not a half assed one." It was half assed because it was rushed, but even still how do you define rushed seeing as Hiromichi Tanaka had 5 years to develop the game.. and a previous game under his belt. When you target to many demographics you are more apt to create a sloppy product. Simple marketing strategy you play to your strengths and you develop a product that has a target demographic not all demographics...

Cite your sources. Then we'll talk. You'll have to show that your Immersion v. Spatial Presence is not an idea of your own and support it with outside sources in order to persuasively make me think that immersion can be objective. I also already read it when you posted it the first time. I just didn't buy it.

I also said that mechanics can be immersion, not necessarily that they always are. Pong can be immersive, the mechanic of a dot being bounced back and forth is the catalyst for the consumer's imagination. The level of immersion in Pong is defined by the player. They could choose to focus solely on the manipulation of their "paddle" to make sure the ball stays in play. They could choose to play defensively or offensively (taking immersion a step further). They could utilize a mixture of both in order to confuse their opponent (even further). They could even pretend the match was table tennis (even further). They could roleplay as their favorite pro tennis athlete (even further). The last is common in youth sports. In childhood pickup games before going in for a lay up or a jump shot from beyond the three point line the player may shout the name of their most admired professional athlete in an attempt to emulate them.

"Jordan!"

I've shown, and many other posters have already shown, how a person's level of immersion is primarily chosen not given. I suggest you read Konachibi's posts. They accurately show how immersion is subjective. Game mechanics act as the catalyst for immersion. Immersion for immersion's sake is considerably less immersive than if it were to involve player input as well.

[Azurymber]

Cite your sources. Then we'll talk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain < all sources cited
set + match

[Aenarion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain < all sources cited
set + match

quoting wikipedia = fail

quoting unrelated wikipedia page = double fail

you set+match'd yourself

[Bled]

Cite your sources. Then we'll talk. You'll have to show that your Immersion v. Spatial Presence is not an idea of your own and support it with outside sources in order to persuasively make me think that immersion can be objective. I also already read it when you posted it the first time. I just didn't buy it.

I also said that mechanics can be immersion, not necessarily that they always are. Pong can be immersive, the mechanic of a dot being bounced back and forth is the catalyst for the consumer's imagination. The level of immersion in Pong is defined by the player. They could choose to focus solely on the manipulation of their "paddle" to make sure the ball stays in play. They could choose to play defensively or offensively (taking immersion a step further). They could utilize a mixture of both in order to confuse their opponent (even further). They could even pretend the match was table tennis (even further). They could roleplay as their favorite pro tennis athlete (even further). The last is common in youth sports. In childhood pickup games before going in for a lay up or a jump shot from beyond the three point line the player may shout the name of their most admired professional athlete in an attempt to emulate them.

"Jordan!"

I've shown, and many other posters have already shown, how a person's level of immersion is primarily chosen not given. I suggest you read Konachibi's posts. They accurately show how immersion is subjective. Game mechanics act as the catalyst for immersion. Immersion for immersion's sake is considerably less immersive than if it were to involve player input as well.

If this conversation has come down to the "cite your sources" argument, which I'm sure would have turned into "unless your citing scholarly journals i don't buy it blah blah blah". I'm going to just walk away from this one, had I known in order to "humble" you i needed to develop a thesis with full work cited i would have reconsidered this conversation as a whole (this is a forum for the love of god). What would be the next thing you asked for, an annotated bibliography?

You seem to me to be a decent person just not very humbled is all, i wish you fun and great times in FF14.

P.S. I apologies for not reading your link directions earlier, i must have skimmed over that accidentally.

[Charismatic]

If this conversation has come down to the "cite your sources" argument, which I'm sure would have turned into "unless your citing scholarly journals i don't buy it blah blah blah". I'm going to just walk away from this one, had I known in order to "humble" you i needed to develop a thesis with full work cited i would have reconsidered this conversation as a whole (this is a forum for the love of god). What would be the next thing you asked for, an annotated bibliography?

You seem to me to be a decent person just not very humbled is all, i wish you fun and great times in FF14.

P.S. I apologies for not reading your link directions earlier, i must have skimmed over that accidentally.

wtf am I reading?

[Konachibi]

wtf am I reading?

Something with a lot of long and complicated words.

[Rhomagus]

If this conversation has come down to the "cite your sources" argument, which I'm sure would have turned into "unless your citing scholarly journals i don't buy it blah blah blah".That's actually not necessary. I think I asked too much of you for this particular argument. What I should have said is, "Can you cite a source?". I'm actually fine if you don't. The "spatial presence" argument doesn't completely trump the "immersion is objective" argument though. I've got to go to work right now but I'll be back later to expand on this. I've shown how immersion can be subjective and Konachibi has given actual examples. The downside of "immersion for immersion's sake" is "The uncanny valley". I'm not sure if you've heard of it but I'll link information to it later. I'm going to just walk away from this one, had I known in order to "humble" you i needed to develop a thesis with full work cited i would have reconsidered this conversation as a whole (this is a forum for the love of god)Understood. You don't need to cite scholarly sources to humble me but that would an excellent job. A very well reasoned argument would humble me. An argument where I'm stumped and can't respond would humble me.. What would be the next thing you asked for, an annotated bibliography?Completely unnecessary.

You seem to me to be a decent person just not very humbled is allAs I've said before, I can be humbled, I just haven't in this thread. I've even shown my faults at times. I've even shown my faults in this post. Shouldn't have asked for sources, miscommunicated once., i wish you fun and great times in FF14.

P.S. I apologies for not reading your link directions earlier, i must have skimmed over that accidentally.

I did notice though that you were starting to quote mine my responses and juxtapose them strategically to make it seem like I was referring to something else. This will get me to remove myself from the argument just as Azurymber's misuse of the same logical fallacy did. I need to start seeing as much care as I put into my responses as I've been putting into yours. My method of putting red text into your quotes along with an overall response to the post as a whole leaves no room for the "you didn't read what I said." I've noticed that I bring up several points in a response but only cherry picked ones are used in your rebuttals. I can show this when I get back from work, as I can show how you began to quote mine me and pull my words out of context.

I wish the same for you and your enjoyment of Final Fantasy XIV. I don't think our needs are mutually exclusive.

[Konachibi]

I did notice though that you were starting to quote mine my responses and juxtapose them strategically to make it seem like I was referring to something else. This will get me to remove myself from the argument just as Azurymber's misuse of the same logical fallacy did. I need to start seeing as much care as I put into my responses as I've been putting into yours. My method of putting red text into your quotes along with an overall response to the post as a whole leaves no room for the "you're didn't read what I said." I've noticed that I bring up several points in a response but only cherry picked ones are used in your rebuttals. I can show this when I get back from work, as I can show how you began to quote mine me and pull my words out of context.

I wish the same for you and your enjoyment of Final Fantasy XIV. I don't think our needs are mutually exclusive.

He's got the Collins English Dictionary Of Long Words at his disposal... it's going to be a tough battle.

[Rhomagus]

He's got the Collins English Dictionary Of Long Words at his disposal... it's going to be a tough battle.

Long words do not phase me. I have the internet at my disposal. I can look them up. If anything I should try to be more concise with my replies. I think people are getting lost in the "forest" and are unable to see the "trail" I've made. I'll probably start putting quote responses in spoilers and limit the post to a summary response.