Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

[Rhomagus]

I'd like to post some quotes from some earlier interviews with Naoki Yoshida. I think there are some neat little bits that add to this discussion.

I originally posted this in the following thread:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...g-called-anima

I believe it applies to the subject title even more here though.

4Gamer: What kind of game is “Final Fantasy” to you? I really wanted to make sure I asked you that.

Yoshida: That’s a tough question. (laughs) A lot of different people have worked on the Final Fantasy series and I think you’ll find as many “Final Fantasy”s as the people who made them. I think it means something different to each player out there too. For example, if you ask if somebody likes Final Fantasy, they often reply with the titles from the series they liked. And each of those answers will be different too. However, I think what everyone has in common is getting pulled into the world of Final Fantasy. Every new FF title brings a new way of looking at the world. I think that FFXIV will prove itself as part of the Final Fantasy series by the way we show people how they can enjoy their time in Eorzea.

This hints at the motivation for why we are getting these barebones features implemented asap. It's a foundation for what future content will be built upon.

4Gamer: Yet, it feels like FFXIV lacks some of the overall characteristics that make a game part of the Final Fantasy series. The names of spells certainly show their FF roots but we have yet to get chocobos or airships. I feel like it still needs things to make it feel like a Final Fantasy experience.

Yoshida: I think if you ask players about that, they’ll ask for Meteor, airships, things of the like. As for the chocobos, they are there but people want to be able to ride them. That gets us back to the discussion we had just a bit ago which asks, “What is the bare minimum that people expect when they begin to play this game?” I think the things people expect from an FF game have to be reflected in the game content. That’s why, in addition to the other tasks, we have to ask what’s most important to the players, which is precisely what our team is thinking about right now.

later on in the interview:

First, we have to get our ducks in a row. Then, once we have confidence, we can work things out from there, creating a timeline for things that will happen in each quarter of the year, and then beyond. However, we have to get ourselves into a position where we can make good on our promises first.

The following quote is from a more recent interview:

4Gamer: I see. One side may see it as making the game too easy but there are more who feel safe while playing because of it.

Yoshida: I think so. Down the line we’ll be releasing a PS3 version of FFXIV and that means a new generation of players including some who have never touched an MMORPG before. We’ve been working on UI improvements for the last six months but when the PS3 version is released, there are going to be a lot of things that are needed for those players as a matter of course. So even if there are current players who might object to it, I’ve always felt that we need to release whatever information we can. We want players to understand that we’ll continue to add new things, and given that, we’d like for them to make their own decisions on how to play the game, develop battle strategies, etc.

Bolded for emphasis. I'm confident that suggestions would be better heard if they kept this philosophy in mind. This is the current producer's design philosophy.

To add:

4Gamer: It doesn’t have to just be real friends. Sometimes people meet new friends online and choose to start playing a game together. I think there are a lot of people who continue to play with other people in these smaller communities.

Yoshida: That’s the way things are going. So we think about what kind of content we can make that doesn’t require strict role division and makes it easier to form parties while at the same time, creating content that makes a player think “hey, this weekend, let’s make a plan and take on the hardest thing we can with the group we have”. There are a lot of entertainment choices out there and given the busy lives of the current generation of players, it’s only natural that people would have different ways of playing whether it’s a weekend or a weekday.

Given the type of content we want to make, you come to the conclusion that it just isn’t probable to balance the game with groups of 15 people.

To continue:

Yoshida: So if you ask what makes FFXIV special, it’s that you can be by yourself, play in a small party, play in a big party, play any class, play differently on the weekends or weekdays, the community size, and the way parties are going that day…. It doesn’t matter because there is so much you can choose from. The job system will be added which just means you could also team up with your friends and enjoy playing as certain jobs. I think all of that is what will make FFXIV different.

Bold for emphasis.

Also from the Eorzeapedia interview:

Q. At the Ebisu event back in September we saw what looked like group crafting – where a group appeared to jointly craft a cake. What can you tell us about that?

A. Yoshida-san indicated that he wants to keep developing this system, but its priority is still to be decided. He went on to joke that he needs to address how the cake would be used before addressing how the cake was made.

Again bolded for emphasis, even though it's passed off as a joke, it's a legitimate premise of game design. If it has no use, then there's no need to implement it.

This is often where writers and editors butt heads. Sometimes there are whole chapters of books, whole concepts of characters, that have to be flushed away or adjusted and streamlined. This choice isn't always made for "money because it ruins things". It's often made because it doesn't fit within the overall theme of the peice or is a distraction. In some instances, while a lengthy description might seem superfluous at the time, it may be put into perspective when contrasting certain milestones of the experience as a whole.

If you've read "Infinite Jest" by David Foster Wallace, you'll notice that he includes extensive footnotes, some of which are whole pages long. Even in this medium Wallace understood that people can't be bothered with distraction, which is also a theme of the book, but they can choose to delve further in and they should be provided with the information to do so, (which is also a theme in the book). Immersion is not a one way street. There is a content creator and a content consumer and both need to do legwork in order to provide this sense of immersion. The "immersionists" in this thread do not want to do the legwork required on their own part and want immersion to be a one way street by "forcing the footnotes" into the "main story". As shown above, there is plenty to "immerse" yourself in if you are really a true "immersionist". The great thing about "immersion" is that the spark is ignited by the content creator, but the content consumer gets to choose how much they want to involve themselves.

For example:

level 1: Nael van Darnus is from Garlemald.
level 2: Nael van Darnus is from Galemald. Nael Van Darnus is a bad guy.
level 3: Nael van Darnus is from the Empire of Garlemald. This makes him an enemy of Eorzea.
level 4: Nael van Darnus is known as the "White Raven" from the Empire of Garlemald. This contrasts him with his compatriot Gaius van Baelsar who is the "Black Wolf" also from the empire. They are both from Garlemald therefore they are enemies of Eorzea.
level 5: The "White Raven" and the "Black Wolf" from the Empire of Garlemald have differing philosophies. If they are enemies of each other, perhaps freedom loving Eorzeans can use this relationship to their advantage, or perhaps their seemingly opposing views are only a feint in order to coax out possible dissenters within their ranks. The "White Raven" claims a bloodrite to the founding of Garlemald and the "Black Wolf" utilizes a weapon synonymous with felling numerous heirs to the throne. Perhaps the author is trying to foreshadow something by choosing to implement these details into their description.
level 6: Both characters seem to share traits of old Grecian leaders and the "van" shared in their naming structure means "from" in Dutch. Perhaps Darnus and Baelsar aren't merely names but also areas within the Empire of Garlemald.
level 7: and so on and so on....

But as you can see, the player starts making their own layers of immersion starting with level 4. This is why old stories are still great today. This is why old games are still great today despite them being outdated. In the end, form a storyline perspective, anyone who is able to comprehend level 1 can be entertained if they allow themselves to be and for those that don't want to go beyond that they don't have to. Having supporting evidence to run with is great but forcing people into level 6 from the outset is preposterous.

In game design the theme should be represented and expressed through the gameplay. Even "immersion" (which is different for everyone) revolves around gameplay. I'm okay with immersion, but not as a distraction to gameplay. This is my reasoning for why forcing a needless waiting mechanic on people that are trying to do something else is not good game design. Also keep in mind, I'm not asking for the abolishment of an airship cutscene/experience. I would love to see airship content, but they shouldn't sacrifice a player's time for aesthetics. If they are asking for a player's time, they need to offer something in return, preferably in the form of gameplay.

The only other excuse I see for using the timesink mechanic is as a tool for social engineering, a poor one at that. I could never agree with this and I believe it's at the core of the "immersionists" argument.

The following thread outlines possible content the developers could implement. It contains a risk/reward mechanic for all of the possible choices while still maintaining:

1.) An express travel option for some
2.) A relaxed experience for others
3.) And last but certainly not least, gameplay related content that fits within the story and adds to the immersion of any player who wants to experience said content.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Content-Ideas.

Please add your thoughts and I'll update the OP accordingly.

tl;dr You're not an immersionist if you tl;dr

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

My point wasn't about FFXI nostalga. it was that FFXI was successful and one of the things it was praised for was its dynamic, large, adventurous, lore-heavy world

This game on the other hand is so far unsuccessful and seems to be taking every action possible to not create a dynamic large adventurous lore-heavy world and instead create a game of instant gratification (kind of like just instancing everything).

while immersion is personal, its all but non existent in a game where you don't actually have a world or heavy story. When you just log on, warp somewhere, kill things, or log on sit down and 1 button for 10 hours to craft, you aren't immersed in any way. You are just doing a repetitive task much a like something people would pay a factory worker to do.

Then the problem, to you, isn't what your OP is stating. Has it come to the point that you lose the debate regarding your OP and are now grasping at straws picking something else to save your point?

Let's not forget that looking at the progression of the game's redevelopment it's only begun to reach a little below the halfway point. So, honestly, it's ridiculous to argue either side of this argument at this point. It's no where close to being finished anytime soon.

Still have more main story missions, zone reconstructions, jobs, hamlet battles, PvP, beastmen strongholds, various primal battles, ect to get. Why are you trying to judge a not even half redeveloped game? Instance areas cannot add challenge or interesting combat or heavy lore? You are so annoying.

[Corrderio]

No, what hurt the immersion were bland, uninspiring areas. All instant travel does is allow you to get to places faster so you can enjoy the game's content, whenever we get more of it.

[weeble]

My point wasn't about FFXI nostalga. it was that FFXI was successful and one of the things it was praised for was its dynamic, large, adventurous, lore-heavy world

This game on the other hand is so far unsuccessful and seems to be taking every action possible to not create a dynamic large adventurous lore-heavy world and instead create a game of instant gratification (kind of like just instancing everything).

while immersion is personal, its all but non existent in a game where you don't actually have a world or heavy story. When you just log on, warp somewhere, kill things, or log on sit down and 1 button for 10 hours to craft, you aren't immersed in any way. You are just doing a repetitive task much a like something people would pay a factory worker to do.

i agree with what az says bout the ffxi vs ffxiv... i don't about the boat rides being the reason at all on why the game will not be anything that ffxi was. i want all that she makes a picture of, but ...boat ride ..isn't it. i shouted and tele myself all day in ffxi... allllll day and boat rides stillllll like 2-5times a day, near end maybe 1-2times a day still, aaand we did tons of running around ...i don't know how many times i can say this lol. ffxi had instant ports they were just done way better. more centralized. it's not the ports and it's not the boats, it is everything else that is failing to create what ffxi was. in no way is it the 5minute boat ride, maybe some of u think of the boat as another bullet in the chest of what was ffxi but at most it's a scratch off the arm.

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

My point wasn't about FFXI nostalga. it was that FFXI was successful and one of the things it was praised for was its dynamic, large, adventurous, lore-heavy world

and by the way, this is the most retarded explanation as to why you're not FFXI nostalgia driven as it is expressing direct nostalgia for FFXI in the explanation as to why it isn't.

I mean, honestly? Honestly?

[AmyRae]

Based on how things have been going I'm going to go out on a limb and say alienating the nich players from FF11 and the other players who enjoy challenging deep immersive content is a bad idea...

Log into FFXI and hop onto an airship, any airship, and see how many people are on it. Chances are, you'll be the only one. How could instant airship travel in FFXIV alienate anyone from FFXI when the long-winded ones in FFXI are too inconvenient and hardly ever get used? You're just pushing for a design people in FFXI don't even want to use in their own game! I doubt you have the ability to speak for the typical FFXI player at all.

[Azurymber]

and by the way, this is the most retarded explanation as to why you're not FFXI nostalgia driven as it is expressing direct nostalgia for FFXI in the explanation as to why it isn't.

I mean, honestly? Honestly?

noting success does not = nostalga.
FFXI was success
FFXIV is not success

Thus you need to ask "why was FFXI" a success

and you come the the arguments i made which you try to frame as nostalga.

[Azurymber]

Log into FFXI and hop onto an airship, any airship, and see how many people are on it. Chances are, you'll be the only one. How could instant airship travel in FFXIV alienate anyone from FFXI when the long-winded ones in FFXI are too inconvenient and hardly ever get used? You're just pushing for a design people in FFXI don't even want to use in their own game! I doubt you have the ability to speak for the typical FFXI player at all.

this thread isn't about airships its about instant travel in general first of all.

Airships becoming instant are just a missed opportunity. You have a game which has a storyline heavily centered on the skies. Garlemald is powerful because of their flying juggernauts, and Ishguard is fighting giant dragons.

So instead of integrating sky fights and stuff into the game you make the 1 air-related thing instant....

But again, the point is the overall problem of instant travel and not just the airship. FFXI had instant travel done right. FFXIV has instant travel done lazy, and as such it makes FFXIV's world seem -dead-

[BruceyBruceyBangBang]

noting success does not = nostalga.
FFXI was success
FFXIV is not success

Thus you need to ask "why was FFXI" a success

and you come the the arguments i made which you try to frame as nostalga.

You are comparing two different games based on your senses of both with one leaning heavily on the past. This is nostalgia driven. If you had nothing to pull from in terms of FFXI then you wouldn't be doing the, "Remember way back when...?" and you wouldn't have a point.

When all you can pull from is FFXI, you have to question what is driving that. It's obvious what "that" is. Also, you cannot compare the two anyway as FFXIV is not fully redeveloped as I have stated a few posts ago. Hell, it's also been stated by several people throughout this thread. It's not an original point on my behalf, but it still holds true 35 pages into the discussion. You cannot preemptively combat what FFXIV will be in the end of it's redevelopment, at least not fully. Especially when all of your thoughts are pulled from obvious FFXI nostalgia driven systems.

[Azurymber]

You are comparing two different games based on your senses of both with one leaning heavily on the past. This is nostalgia driven. If you had nothing to pull from in terms of FFXI then you wouldn't be doing the, "Remember way back when...?" and you wouldn't have a point.

When all you can pull from is FFXI, you have to question what is driving that. It's obvious what "that" is. Also, you cannot compare the two anyway as FFXIV is not fully redeveloped as I have stated a few posts ago. Hell, it's also been stated by several people throughout this thread. It's not an original point on my behalf, but it still holds true 35 pages into the discussion. You cannot preemptively combat what FFXIV will be in the end of it's redevelopment, at least not fully. Especially when all of your thoughts are pulled from obvious FFXI nostalgia driven systems.

you can't use the "ffxiv isnt fully redeveloped" argument anymore. Its been a year. People like you will make this same argument a year from now when the game is still free....

If you are a company with a successful product, you copy the parts that were successful and throw away the parts that were unsuccessful, thus resulting in a -more- successful product. Thats fairly logical.....
FFXI was a success. To ignore it and make a game that is the complete opposite and then wonder why it falls on its face is ridiculous. I don't see why anyone thinks a team that couldn't fix a game in a year will magically turn things around in a few months and make a game a hit success? Thats not realistic -at all-.