Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

[Jobeto-Rin]

If you respond, also take into account I've never played any other MMO besides Final Fantasy XI. I've never even tried WoW. This is not a WoW vs FF argument. Nor is it a churn and burn vs. immersion argument. It's an options vs. no options argument.

Understood.

When you heard of a MMO game, (to me at least) immediate reactions of a game virtual world arose. From the detailed intricacies of what entailed a MMO game; An in-game clock, with it's own periods of night and day; applicable real world weather, snow, desert storms, etc etc.; Real life people oriented groups, shops, clans, gangs, entourages, posses etc.; To engaging environments, mountains, oceans, vast lands, cities and villages. You knew it would be massive and would take time to go through the necessities to create what you would deem as a virtual image of yourself and venture this world. The time invested wasn't relevant, it was the the thrill of experiencing the game and enjoying the e-world with other people and their own unique characters, that mattered.

Now fast forward to the aftermath of WOW. Players say they have no time, now it's just a game they throw hours into and just level up, vicinities filled with egotistical people trying to attain the greatest gear and highest level as quickly as possible, largest LS, all for bragging rights. No more dedication is required really, it's just become another game to play. MMO's are loosing it's essence.

I believe casuals, and the money they offered to game companies, swayed the change of this, but above is old school MMO's to me, it seems times are changing. There's so much more to say.

Money ruins so much crap man.

[Azurymber]

Understood.

When you heard of a MMO game, (to me at least) immediate reactions of a game virtual world arose. From the detailed intricacies of what entailed a MMO game; An in-game clock, with it's own periods of night and day; applicable real world weather, snow, desert storms, etc etc.; Real life people oriented groups, shops, clans, gangs, entourages, posses etc.; To engaging environments, mountains, oceans, vast lands, cities and villages. You knew it would be massive and would take time to go through the necessities to create what you would deem as a virtual image of yourself and venture this world. The time invested wasn't relevant, it was the the thrill of experiencing the game and enjoying the e-world with other people and their own unique characters, that mattered.

Now fast forward to the aftermath of WOW. Players say they have no time, now it's just a game they throw hours into and just level up, vicinities filled with egotistical people trying to attain the greatest gear and highest level as quickly as possible, largest LS, all for bragging rights. No more dedication is required really, it's just become another game to play. MMO's are loosing it's essence.

I believe casuals, and the money they offered to game companies, swayed the change of this, but above is old school MMO's to me, it seems times are changing. There's so much more to say.

Money ruins so much crap man.

Its also companies failing to realize how to make a profit these days.
You can:
A: copy the best guy
which almost always results in a failed product

or
B: Take whats good from the best guy and create something new and innovative.

This game was originally innovative and if released a year later would have probably been very successful.
ex. everyone says the world is copy/pasted, but if you explore you'll notice almost all the little nodes covered in 1-shot kill things are unique looking and not copy pasted in any way (cept coerthas)

with a change in devs it has turned into a complete copy of WoW though.

[Bled]

Understood.

When you heard of a MMO game, (to me at least) immediate reactions of a game virtual world arose. From the detailed intricacies of what entailed a MMO game; An in-game clock, with it's own periods of night and day; applicable real world weather, snow, desert storms, etc etc.; Real life people oriented groups, shops, clans, gangs, entourages, posses etc.; To engaging environments, mountains, oceans, vast lands, cities and villages. You knew it would be massive and would take time to go through the necessities to create what you would deem as a virtual image of yourself and venture this world. The time invested wasn't relevant, it was the the thrill of experiencing the game and enjoying the e-world with other people and their own unique characters, that mattered.

Now fast forward to the aftermath of WOW. Players say they have no time, now it's just a game they throw hours into and just level up, vicinities filled with egotistical people trying to attain the greatest gear and highest level as quickly as possible, largest LS, all for bragging rights. No more dedication is required really, it's just become another game to play. MMO's are loosing it's essence.

I believe casuals, and the money they offered to game companies, swayed the change of this, but above is old school MMO's to me, it seems times are changing. There's so much more to say.

Money ruins so much crap man.

+1 Couldn't agree more.

I tried explaining this same premise pry a year ago here in the forums.. lot more trolls back then lol

[Rhomagus]

Understood.

When you heard of a MMO game, (to me at least) immediate reactions of a game virtual world arose. From the detailed intricacies of what entailed a MMO game; An in-game clock, with it's own periods of night and day; applicable real world weather, snow, desert storms, etc etc.; Real life people oriented groups, shops, clans, gangs, entourages, posses etc.; To engaging environments, mountains, oceans, vast lands, cities and villages. You knew it would be massive and would take time to go through the necessities to create what you would deem as a virtual image of yourself and venture this world. The time invested wasn't relevant, it was the the thrill of experiencing the game and enjoying the e-world with other people and their own unique characters, that mattered.

Now fast forward to the aftermath of WOW. Players say they have no time, now it's just a game they throw hours into and just level up, vicinities filled with egotistical people trying to attain the greatest gear and highest level as quickly as possible, largest LS, all for bragging rights. No more dedication is required really, it's just become another game to play. MMO's are loosing it's essence.

I believe casuals, and the money they offered to game companies, swayed the change of this, but above is old school MMO's to me, it seems times are changing. There's so much more to say.

Money ruins so much crap man.

I don't agree that your conclusion applies to my experience of Final Fantasy XIV. In fact, I'd argue that the things you listed are actually in Final Fantasy XIV. I don't think I need to point them out to you, but I'll list what I do with my in game time.

I choose to fight mobs beyond the normal raptor grind. I choose to craft my own gear. I choose to watch cutscenes. I choose to record my cutscenes. I choose to write fanfictions. I choose to gather and hunt for materials. I choose to interact with other players regardless if I know them or not. I choose to teach other players who have never used a battle regimen the advantages of using battle regimens by walking them through it step by step. I choose to talk with varying people from all around the world (Egypt, England, United States, Greece, Netherlands, and Taiwan so far). I choose to have considerably deep conversations with these folks ranging from topics as varied as politics and gender roles to cats and pizza. I choose to roleplay when roleplayers greet me in /say. I choose to SP grind Toto-Rak at 25. I choose to SP grind Dzemael Darkhold at 45. I choose to watch these cutscenes when I'm not rushing to the boss. I choose to skip these cutscenes when I'm rushing to the boss. I choose to walk when I don't need to use my anima. I choose to use my anima when I'm needed somewhere. I choose to grind raptors at times. I choose to log in and not do anything but talk with friends sometimes. I choose to grind mobs beyond the 10 rank cap. I choose to grind in a light party. I choose to grind solo. I choose to do battlecraft/fieldcraft/ alone and sometimes with others. I choose to do local levequests. I'm dissapointed I don't have the choice to do them with a friend but when I do we share the anima. I choose to utilize the forums. I choose to not always check every thread created in the last day.

Not to mention your in game clock, weather, storms, groups, etc.

I'll choose to experience/watch the airship sequence/cutscene. I'll choose not to experience/watch the airship/cutscene.

I guess I play the game like I live my life. I get out of it what I put into it. What others do is their own choice unless it hinders on my or another's freedoms and I try to reduce the actions that I take that may hinder other people's freedoms.

None of my choices effect you or your enjoyment of the game unless you go out of your way to let them.

Your response derailed the topic btw and didn't answer the post.

As does this one:

Its also companies failing to realize how to make a profit these days.
You can:
A: copy the best guy
which almost always results in a failed product

or
B: Take whats good from the best guy and create something new and innovative.

This game was originally innovative and if released a year later would have probably been very successful.
ex. everyone says the world is copy/pasted, but if you explore you'll notice almost all the little nodes covered in 1-shot kill things are unique looking and not copy pasted in any way (cept coerthas)

with a change in devs it has turned into a complete copy of WoW though.

I think I'm done with this thread.

[Gennosuke]

Airships aren't chocobos. A gil fee may be levied for use, replacing Anima costs with gil costs, effectively implementing a deflation strategy alongside the current repair system. No to mention, those who want to appreciate the airship ride can post 1.19 in a future patch update.

The issue is why are we forcing people to stand around when they could be doing something else? I agree with letting an airship ride remain for those who want to watch it but why must we keep it that way for those who don't? The argument is an attempt to manipulate an individual's playstyle to conform to the "immersionist's" ideal. I'll never agree with this, especially when the immersionist has the option whether or not to utilize said content. It's a poor argument with a selfish premise. In an MMO no less.

The very framework of the leve and anima system was to help accommodate casual players so that they too could enjoy playing with their more time wealthy allies. So what's being proposed by the development team is a system that, in later iterations, will provide content for the time wealthy but will also offer respite for those who are low on anima and need to travel to a given area quickly.

If you must keep immersion, why not implement a minigame that completely refunds your gil spent for choosing to take "the road less traveled"? Not only do you have the option for immersion, but you also have actual content. The level of difficulty provided by said mini game could be decided by the developers. Hell, here's an opportunity to introduce legitimate content now, but no, the premise for restricting instant airships is "because I don't want them to make it easy for others."

Change the premise and we can continue.



Fixed that for you. I now completely agree. This gives the content for those who want to experience it and the freedom for those who don't. Win/Win.



The problem is that I have yet to see someone advocate that we make sure there is no airship scenario option for those who do want one. One side wants to restrict the other, while the other just wants to be free. That's an oppressive stance to take if you must require that people aren't given the option to skip the ride. It's not hurting you, hell, you might even find yourself, one day, with no anima and be right in town where you could take the airship to it's other destination and maybe there is a live event that's going on but you might miss it if you don't skip the cutscene. Why not have that option there when you need it? You don't have to use it, but you might want to use it every once in awhile. I see no downsides to this except for red herrings and slippery slope logical fallacies. This is a very ample compromise.



There's much more to this MMO than that. I suggest you get out and explore. What's the matter with you? Are you the one asking for an instant port? If not, then what's the problem. Does the game force you to insta port others? For those that are fine with getting together with their friends or playing solo, chatting it up, killing mobs, and grinding raptors: Go on ahead. I'm not going to dictate their gaming experience.



Again, no one is advocating this. Show me a post where they have and I'll gladly adjust or retract my statement. Even if the world was designed well I still don't want to waste my time when I'm beholden by others or have my own goals in mind.



Anima has lore surrounding it. Anima was a game mechanic from the outset. That's not going away, I'm pretty confident in those words. Even if the game world was designed "better" it'd still have anima. There will still be people who just don't want to be bothered with tedious activities in between their goals. That is a direct response to the bolded area in your quote. You still had people offering tele taxis in XI. You don't think that would still crop up if we got rid of anima? Not to mention that was another avenue for RMT for awhile. If anything anima's implementation into XIV was more a direct response to complaints about XI's overreaching philosophy falsely obstructed by the term "immersion". In XI, they wasted your time because they didn't have content to back it up. Time spent =/= content and it never will. Why are we so against fixing XI's mistakes? Ridiculous wait times between content was one of it's biggest.



There is nothing here I disagree with. The immersionist argument is also presupposing that airships will take you everywhere. While we don't have information yet, what is making us believe it's going to take us anywhere other than the city-states?

The proposition still stands, wasting time for wasting time's sake is not good game design. This last paragraph is difficult to argue with, it's only when it's in context of the rest of the post is it misused. It should be fun and challenging. Yes! but AFK sammich is neither fun nor challenging. Well, if it is, it's not game related. It's sammich related.

Just reading through your whole reply, i can't help but think you missed the core concept behind my post.
To answer your question, No the game does not force me to insta-port and by the same token it does not force you to take an airship ride.
My suggestion for that issue, if you cared to pay a bit of attention was that SE could easily introduce alternatives for people like you, such as NPC's to cater for insta ports at some cost other than Anima.

My main point here is that Airship should be an Airship ride, not an insta port. You dont want to be dictated? That's Fine, i agree with you. Request for npc's for porting, we had them in XI, they can easily do them again. Perhaps if we stress that, it will come to pass. I nowhere dictated the Immersionist's style of play for those who can't be stuffed. The point here is that you shouldn't dictate what the Airship should grow and flourish to be, hopefully an exciting part of the game, and not just merely an instant travel tool. we've all seen the intro movie with the airship battles and that was something highly anticipated to be a part of the game.

One major potential issue i see with it being instanced is that if you do choose to take the ride, my impression is that you will be on the ride on your own instead of with other players where people can for example enjoy content on airship together such as teaming up with strangers on-board to fight against enemies in airship battles and such. That would just plain suck, and in that case aren't you dictating what other players could have enjoyed as a result of your beloved insta-port system?

The other issue is, realistically speaking, when you give the option to instaport or not, it would be silly not take the instaport option, everyone will just start instaporting, killing off the airship feature when it should be an integral part of the game. You can go ahead and blame the immersionist for choosing not to take that option to ride, but some things should be enforced for the good of the game. By your logic, they should also make the ferry insta port as well, and hey, why not have the guards by the city gates insta port us to any guild in the town so we dont have to run in the city anymore? Then, you tell me, who wouldn't use that option if it existed? Shall we just remove Anima cost? Heck.. lets just remove running All together, so with a click of a button in the menu, people can reach their destination in a split of a second and not waste any game time. It's just becoming ridiculous.
I don't advocate mindless time-sinks and neither do i advocate dictating those limited in time or uninterested, but we should strike a balance and there should be a line drawn somewhere. In this case, i'd like see these rides remain rides and not ports. There is a teleportation system, let's utilize that for those who can't be bothered.

It is merely my feeling that i think its a sad sight to see, where people in an MMO can't be bothered spending some time to explore/experience the world because they feel it's a time-sink when it plays a huge factor in the overall experience of the game. But Meh, To each his own.
Granted, i can see the short comings of taking this path myself in the current state of the game, it is rather dull as it stands. I just don't fancy seeing the game turning into an insta-everything for the sake of convenience and as a result compromise encouraging exploration and adventure and whatever else the game has to offer but.. that's just my opinion anyway.

[Jaber]

Here's an amazing concept:

Are you ready for it?

I don't think you are.

Are you sure?

Really sure?

Well, okay...

You don't need the game to force you to do something for you to enjoy doing it!
Nothing is stopping you from walking if you want to walk!

...except for the group of people that you're forcing to wait on you because you wanted to be totally immersed in the experience of spending an hour walking from Gridania to Ul'dah to meet up with them.

But other than that, nothing~!

[Jobeto-Rin]

In fact, I'd argue that the things you listed are actually in Final Fantasy XIV.

Your response derailed the topic btw and didn't answer the post.

Yeah, I kind of did get carried away.

Your misunderstanding me. I'm not saying FFXIV doesn't have those above attributes (night/day stuff etc)
What I'm saying is that certain mechanics in this mmo (insta-teleports), are stripping away some of the involvement and immersion associated with those attributes, obviously because of the changing standards of a MMO.

Yes, I'm aware, personally subjective.

It is what it is.

I'm very sorry, but what question didn't I answer?

[Azurymber]

Here's an amazing concept:

Are you ready for it?

I don't think you are.

Are you sure?

Really sure?

Well, okay...

You don't need the game to force you to do something for you to enjoy doing it!
Nothing is stopping you from walking if you want to walk!

...except for the group of people that you're forcing to wait on you because you wanted to be totally immersed in the experience of spending an hour walking from Gridania to Ul'dah to meet up with them.

But other than that, nothing~!

again...
then why not have insta-level button. No one forces you to use it, you can still grind for a month.
Why not have insta boss-kill. no one forces you to use it, you can still die 50 times tryin to take out that hard boss for good gear
Why even have an economy ? make a list and let players choose all the equipment they want

[Jaber]

again...
then why not have insta-level button. No one forces you to use it, you can still grind for a month.
Why not have insta boss-kill. no one forces you to use it, you can still die 50 times tryin to take out that hard boss for good gear
Why even have an economy ? make a list and let players choose all the equipment they want

Show of hands, who here is wanting to play this game not to fight enemies nor build their character up nor explore nor do raids nor progress through the story, but to hold W for an hour and run around the market wards all day?

What we have here is a lack of understanding. More specifically, you lack an understanding of how games work.
Working together with your party to take down a strong enemy is fun. Idling on an airship for ten minutes is not.
Building up your character is fun. Spending a halfhour running through those hugeass straightaways Gridania is riddled with is not.

More to the point:
PURPOSELESS DELAYS ARE NOT A GAMEPLAY ELEMENT
They are not something you can base a successful game around
"Lots of pointless waiting before we let you do the thing you actually want to do!" is not something you can put on the back of the box

[Bled]

Final Fantasy 14 has very little immersion, and as much as id love to explain things to you all writing a wall of text does not seem enjoyable at this point for people who seem to be stone walling.

Here is the link to an article that pretty much sums up the problems of FF14: http://www.psychologyofgames.com/201...n-video-games/