Does instant transportation effect game immersion?

[Jobeto-Rin]

I couldn't do all that quote stuff so I just bold my original quote and red is Rhomagus response.

"So, ultimately at the nadir, isn't every last one of us immersed?" Yes to some extent


To some extent?
You are either immersed/involved or not. Your playing the game or your not. Period
There is no gray. You are still being immersed into it. We all are being immersed, the only difference is our level of it. That is the point being made.

"Just by choosing to log in there is a level of immersion that is required of the user, but that's the base of it."

There you said it for me. That's all I needed to read. Any level of immersion is now subjective.

"Only the level of it and feelings are" The level of it and feelings are. I don't think only though. As some people don't move beyond the "hook"..

Just because the "hook" wasn't enjoyable enough, does not mean they're not immersed. It means they're not enjoying the immersion that the game "hook" provides. That is what's subjective. We are being immersed into FFXIV, regardless. the level of it depends on the person. Therefore reducing things to accommodate for the people who are less immersed is taking away from the people who are. Options on airship rides is an example, because traveling is important to immersion. Explained below.

"Love or lump your version of immersion," Not to be off topic but I found this sentence beautifully poetic. I don't understand the phrase "love or lump" but I'll assume that it's akin to "love or loathe"

Yes, it's equivalent to that, lol thank you. I'm into poetry and have intermittent urges to rhyme. They overtake me at times.

"who have a higher level of immersion than most, and reducing our overall fun and experience."
But you aren't them. You can be only you. Only you can experience your experiences.

The same can be said about you and your experiences. If I can't speak for others, how can you?

"Travel means traversing distances, recognizing and feeling distance substantiates massiveness."
But it's wholly unnecessary to completely base your immersion on it.

Yes it is necessary! In order to feel distance you have to travel it. Movement is needed to justify going somewhere. No shortcuts. You take away a vital component to making an imaginary world large. If you see a long long long hallway and a door at the end, your probably going to think, "damn thats a long ass hallway." So you walk and you walk and you walk and you walk until arrival. That walking substantiates it, not only in your mind but also body wise, that you went somewhere because it took time to get there. Now if you see a button on the wall that says skip, press it and then your at the door. More than likely your going to be like "Well damn, that wasn't too far". The necessity, the need, the requirement to move long distances justifies massiveness. Without it there it remains only a mirage. That's messed up a virtual world mirage? Jesus.

As shown by another poster in this thread. We don't watch a character sleep for 8 hours.

There are different ways to immerse someone in a game, that is a different type of immersion tact. It's not affected by airship rides. The immersion type I'm referring to is relevant to the feeling of the size this world. The main thing being effected.

I argued teleportion should be at aetherytes only. I failed to show why. Now this? No freaking way. Leave us our airships. You guys have anima to use wisely! Please. These things are ruining the experience for those who do become immersed in it at a high level.

and I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[Crica]

There are different ways to immerse someone in a game

I agree.

I prefer to be immersed in game play.

You prefer to be immersed in travel play.

Square has offered both preferences to us.

Instant travel for me so I can begin playing the game quickly - so the game is less boring for me.

Slow travel for you so you can travel for long periods - so the world feels large for you.

I won't ask Square to take away your preferred immersion if you stop asking Square to take away my preferred immersion.

Deal?

[Rhomagus]

My response to Jobeto-Rin is in blue.

I couldn't do all that quote stuff so I just bold my original quote and red is Rhomagus response.

"So, ultimately at the nadir, isn't every last one of us immersed?" Yes to some extent


To some extent?
You are either immersed/involved or not. Your playing the game or your not. Period
There is no gray. You are still being immersed into it. We all are being immersed, the only difference is our level of it. That is the point being made.Yep, but that makes it objective. That means that you can definitely say that someone is immersed if they are involving themselves in any way with the content. If they are not involved with the content, they have no immersion whatsoever. These are objective statements. When I said "to an extent" I was referring to the individual levels in which a person can be immersed. I think everyone in the thread was referring to the immersion point/level after the point of login.

"Just by choosing to log in there is a level of immersion that is required of the user, but that's the base of it."

There you said it for me. That's all I needed to read. Any level of immersion is now subjective.Yes, level is subjective, not whether or not someone is or isn't, you can make a factual statement about whether or not someone is or isn't immersed. You can't really make a factual quantifiable statement about their own individual level of immersion.

"Only the level of it and feelings are" The level of it and feelings are. I don't think only though. As some people don't move beyond the "hook"..

Just because the "hook" wasn't enjoyable enough, does not mean they're not immersed. It means they're not enjoying the immersion that the game "hook" provides.If they log off and never play again, they are not immersed. That is what's subjective.When referencing the level of immersion after the login. We are being immersed into FFXIV, regardless.Not if we're not playing and not thinking about it. the level of it depends on the person.I agree. Therefore reducing things to accommodate for the people who are less immersed is taking away from the people who are.Absolutely incorrect. Options on airship rides is an example,Not for showing how immersion can be retained for those who want it. because traveling is important to immersion.As important as a sleep sequence in a film. As important as what a dog is thinking in a country far away in a book where the plot revolves around two young lovers. As important as a news anchors opinion when getting news information. As important as leopard print seats in your automobile. As important as the toppings you prefer on your pizza. As important as the color of your box of pop tarts. As important as the type of shoes you where.... when you're dealing with subjective content one person can assign a level of importance to another person's opinion. They can accommodate for them by providing options that fulfill their needs. Explained below.

"Love or lump your version of immersion," Not to be off topic but I found this sentence beautifully poetic. I don't understand the phrase "love or lump" but I'll assume that it's akin to "love or loathe"

Yes, it's equivalent to that, lol thank you. I'm into poetry and have intermittent urges to rhyme. They overtake me at times.

"who have a higher level of immersion than most, and reducing our overall fun and experience."
But you aren't them. You can be only you. Only you can experience your experiences.

The same can be said about you and your experiences. If I can't speak for others, how can you? Because when it comes to your complaints, they've already been addressed. You have a lore backed reasoning for instant travel. You have reasons for airship content in "Future Airship Content Ideas" thread. You have a risk/reward scenario attached to each choice, further enhancing interactivity. It's as if you are asking for a red car. I give you a blue car and someone else a green car, and you complain that someone else has a green car. You aren't going to please everyone 100% of the time, but it makes no sense to not please people when you have the ability to do so.

"Travel means traversing distances, recognizing and feeling distance substantiates massiveness."
But it's wholly unnecessary to completely base your immersion on it.

Yes it is necessary!See the sleep scene metaphor. In order to feel distance you have to travel it.Then I'd argue it's not big enough. See the Africa/Madagascar metaphor, but that's not feasible to ask, nor required. Movement is needed to justify going somewhere.Not in Hydaelyn where you already have a lore mechanic that explains this. See the Star Trek metaphor. No shortcuts.There are already shortcuts. In all mediums. You take away a vital component to making an imaginary world large.Not when that imaginary world already includes a lore explanation for instantaneous travel. If you see a long long long hallway and a door at the end, your probably going to think, "damn thats a long ass hallway."Keep the hallway. I've never advocated for getting rid of the hallway. So you walk and you walk and you walk and you walk until arrival. That walking substantiates it, not only in your mind but also body wise, that you went somewhere because it took time to get there.In the real world. In a fantasy world where instantaneous travel is a part of the lore this is wholly unnecessary. Now if you see a button on the wall that says skip, press it and then your at the door. More than likely your going to be like "Well damn, that wasn't too far".I'll look behind me and say, "Whoa! I traveled that far. Especially if I could traverse that distance by foot if I so choosed. It's the people who literally run from coast to coast in the United States. Sure anyone can just drive, that doesn't hurt their achievement at all. They applaud their achievement because they chose to run. Even if they chose to run one year should we not allow them to own a vehicle when they are in their 60's and are unable to make the trip? The necessity, the need, the requirement to move long distances justifies massiveness.Wrong, the existence of the long distance justifies massiveness, not the traversal thereof. Without it there it remains only a mirage.If the distance is still there it's still there. That's messed up a virtual world mirage?Except that it hasn't. It's still there. This is an objective statement. I'm not advocating to get rid of the distance. Only the means to traverse it more efficiently and retain the option to experience it. Jesus.Is dead.

As shown by another poster in this thread. We don't watch a character sleep for 8 hours.

There are different ways to immerse someone in a game, that is a different type of immersion tact. It's not affected by airship rides. They're gameplay is effected. Their real life is affected. Especially if they are on it for the umpteenth time. Have seen the same bird fly around, has seen the same NPC driving the airship. After awhile they're just going to go AFK, when instead, they could have chosen a much more dynamic option instead of having rides force fed on them. The immersion type I'm referring to is relevant to the feeling of the size this world.Not in one where instantaneous travel is built into the lore. The main thing being effected.

I argued teleportion should be at aetherytes only. I failed to show why. Now this? No freaking way. Leave us our airships. You guys have anima to use wisely! I've never advocated for a riskless airship ride. Please. I've given you much further content concepts that please all parties than you've given me. Your please has already been considered and taken into account. Don't play the victim here like I'm some kind of stealing your subjective sense of immersion. You're being tyrannical by not, at the very least, coming to a compromise when your needs have already been satiated.These things are ruining the experience for those who do become immersed in it at a high level. Akin to Captain Picard beaming down to the planet below, and the camera cutting to his position.

and I'm not the only one who feels this way. I know, there are a lot of other greeding immersion elitist out there as well. The worse part about it is, that your needs have been addressed in the "Future Airship Contend Ideas" thread but you fail to provide feedback or content to it. The stance that the people in your position take is a "wrong" in an argument as someone could be. You offer no condolences to the other side. You offer no solutions to try to accommodate the other's needs. It's selfish and morally corrupt and that kind of attitude should be shunned in an MMO where people have to deal with each other.

I was surprised by the rhetoric in your response, especially when I was so light-hearted in my initial response. I'm no boy scout or defender of the weak. I've matched the rhetoric accordingly.

[Jynx]

I've explored the world and seen all the effort the team has put into it, there is just no reason for many people to visit these areas aside from just exploring "A are thing these days it seems" considering how often you hear people complaining about how droll the world is when they probably never have set foot outside of the aetherite camps or where their leves divine them to go.

I'm sorry if you feel that "Forcing" some world exploration is a bad thing, personally I think it should be part of the adventure. I understand you Risk Vs Reward system and I think it's a great idea I looked the thread over earlier and can't find anything to dissagree with really aside from it being extremly time intensive to implement such a system that catter to everyone.

I guess perhaps I'm a tad hard-headed towards the changing demographic of the MMO market, but hell I hear people say that the travel system in XI was "Changed so many times" yet...every single time you had some new means of transportation their was some sort of limit or restriction implaced upon it.

Anima is fine the way it is, aside from the fact you don't even have to TRY to get to the camps before you can warp to them I find that sad that it's an option to just FLAT OUT skip the world, not skip it once you have at least got there...just skip it totally. I'm glad that you at least put some effort into your arguement but I wont really budge on my view of how the system should work.

You should at least have to earn something once before you can access it. Walking is currently pointless if your walking for City-A to City-B there is no reason you should ever do it logically, there is nothing to see or experience on the main roads that is even remotely worth noting. I'm not saying jam rank 45 antlings on the path you can't avoid, but I am saying there should be a hazard or two along the way to town, hell maybe a NPC or two to talk too on the roads that travel from city to city.

Christ even a Merchant or something who runs the roads, he doesn't even have to sell great stuff but having a mobile shop wandering the main roads would put some more life into the world. Like I've said I have no issue with fast travel per-se I'm just against the implementation of it where there is 0 effort into aquiring it. The time investment of Anima is fine to limit, but there needs to be the "Risk" of earning the warp areas prior to teleportation.

Currently Teleporting is 0 risk all reward, getting the aetheral nodes is hardly a challenge either minus the few camps that are flat out impossible to get too. I had one challenging run where I could actually avoid stuff but still have scary situations and I believe that was one of the Gridania ones before they changed Efts into instantly agroing morons. (Why they changed efts and a select few other monster agro conditions is beyond me)

I want their to be a challenge when I get a rank 40 camp when I'm nowhere near rank 40. I don't want everyone else to be able to earn it by snapping their fingers either. It cheapens the accomplishment of actually having it when there really was no challenge in the first place because it was skipable.

It's like telling people they could get into (Sorry FFXI reference again) Sea without doing any of the quests, sure you could do the quests and get the story...but you can also just skip all that and walk into Sea no rhym no reason. I think things should be earned, I think thats a great reward being able to get to an area because you worked hard to get it!

I don't think your against this either I'm not targeting you specifically with my arguement, but as it stands instant transportation effects my enjoyment of the game. I don't get the same rush "Just because I went off the beaten path" I get the rush when I did something others had a hard time doing as well, and it's a trial for everyone who plays. You can't give every kid in the class a gold star for trying without making the gold star feel cheap and pointless.

[Rhomagus]

To Jynx:

I've explored the world and seen all the effort the team has put into it, there is just no reason for many people to visit these areas aside from just exploringThey could include more content to get people to go there. They could also already have content in mind just haven't implemented it yet. "A are thing these days it seems"I don't understand this. considering how often you hear people complaining about how droll the world is when they probably never have set foot outside of the aetherite camps or where their leves divine them to go.That's their fault, but also, they should include more content that reinforces a purpose to go there. Forcing people to walk does not accomplish that.

I'm sorry if you feel that "Forcing" some world exploration is a bad thing, personally I think it should be part of the adventure.It is for me. I've already stated that I actually arrived at all of my aetheryte camps manually. For those that want to forgo that they are missing out, but that's their choice. It doesn't effect my adventure. I understand you Risk Vs Reward system and I think it's a great idea I looked the thread over earlier and can't find anything to dissagree with really aside from it being extremly time intensive to implement such a system that catter to everyone.I agree that some of the content is asking a lot, especially the private airship stuff, but the three options really aren't asking that much and could definitely be introduced in stages. Stage one being an instant-teleport (the most basic option) for a fee. This or some revision of this is what we'll be seeing in patch 1.19 and I think it's a great start.

I guess perhaps I'm a tad hard-headed towards the changing demographic of the MMO market, but hell I hear people say that the travel system in XI was "Changed so many times" yet...every single time you had some new means of transportation their was some sort of limit or restriction implaced upon it.Yes. You have a pool of resources to acquire or gain and spend them accordingly at your discretion. The current anima system provides the same game mechanism.

Anima is fine the way it isI agree., aside from the fact you don't even havehave is the keyword here. to TRYAll caps are unnecessary, even for emphasis. to get to the camps before you can warp to themYou still can. If you've got a friend who already has them you can. If you are a loner CE release guy like myself, that was half the fun. I've already told the story about my Aetherial Expeditions where I'd get a group of random folks together for the sole purpose of exploring and acquiring access to the different camps. I find that sadI find it to provide a sense of adventure and independence. that it's an option to just FLAT OUT skip the world, not skip it once you have at least got there...just skip it totally.It's their prerogative. You've certainly decided against that and explored it yourself. You've also provided a very good idea later on in your post which I'll highlight when we get to it. I'm glad that you at least put some effort into your arguement but I wont really budge on my view of how the system should work.This is not a quality I admire, and it tells me that there's no point in continuing this conversation.

You should at least have to earn something once before you can access it.You've earned the ability to teleport to the location either by convincing someone to teleport you there or by walking there yourself. There's just a different level of difficulty required. You don't start the game out with all the points active. Walking is currently pointless if your walking for City-A to City-BI've already shown how that statement is false. there is no reason you should ever do it logically, there is nothing to see or experience on the main roads that is even remotely worth noting.So you would have us walk it anyways? That's backwards logic. I like what you add later on though and I think it's a step in the right direction. I'm not saying jam rank 45 antlings on the pathYou're right, and I misrepresented you. I was not serious in that condemnation though and I'm glad we agree that we shouldn't put rank 45 antlings on the path. you can't avoid, but I am saying there should be a hazard or two along the way to townI don't agree. There should be things to do though., hell maybe a NPC or two to talk too on the roads that travel from city to city.YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!! Now we're talking. Purpose, meaning, content! We need more of that. Give me a reason to walk. Give me a reason to go there. Give me a reason! This is the point I've been advocating for all along and it only adds benefits to both sides of the argument and to the player base as a whole.

Christ even a Merchant or something who runs the roads,Excellent idea! he doesn't even have to sell great stuff but having a mobile shop wandering the main roads would put some more life into the world.Even better. Have the merchant move and change places. Make him/her more alive! I'd also like to see this concept added to the market ward NPCs. That would be so wonderful! Like I've said I have no issue with fast travel per-se I'm just against the implementation of it where there is 0 effort into aquiring it.Like I said there isn't 0 effort in acquiring it. You still have to activate it and that is, at the very least, a modicum amount of effort. The time investment of Anima is fine to limit, but there needs to be the "Risk" of earning the warp areas prior to teleportation.There is a risk. When they implement new zones with new Aetheryte camps you'll find out how. Not only that but the elitists can say, "I got this myself. You probably just warped here." Win/Win.

Currently Teleporting is 0 risk all rewardDepending on if someone is willing to help you., getting the aetheral nodes is hardly a challenge either minus the few camps that are flat out impossible to get too.They are not impossible. Find a group of friends who also don't have them and venture forth! I had one challenging run where I could actually avoid stuff but still have scary situationsI had several in each main field area. Come to think of it, I don't even think I have them all yet. and I believe that was one of the Gridania ones before they changed Efts into instantly agroing morons. (Why they changed efts and a select few other monster agro conditions is beyond me)I totally agree. Making it impossible only encourages people to "cheat port" there even more. At least before you could get out of aggro distance before they attacked you.

I want their to be a challenge when I get a rank 40 camp when I'm nowhere near rank 40.There is but that's up to you. Also, what are you doing at a rank 40 camp when you're nowhere near rank 40? I'm glad you have the ability to get there but I don't see what motivated you to do so. I propose more motivations for varied levels. I don't want everyone else to be able to earn it by snapping their fingers either.This is where we disagree. I don't let other people's accomplishments ruin my own sense of accomplishment. It cheapens the accomplishment of actually having it when there really was no challenge in the first place because it was skipable.I suggest you change your frame of mind on this particular concept. I understand applying this to matters of the economy or things that actually effect other people but this is a fabricated effect that is self imposed and needlessly so. The game is so much more enjoyable when you define your own accomplishments. This applies to life in general as well.

It's like telling people they could get into (Sorry FFXI reference again) Sea without doing any of the quests,I'm fine with that. No need to apologize for referencing XI. The connections are clear. I actually don't like when people say that you can't reference XI. That's just asinine to me. I'm also fine with them getting there at level one. Put in angry mobs and we'll see how long they stay there. sure you could do the quests and get the story...but you can also just skip all that and walk into Sea no rhym no reason. I think things should be earned, I think thats a great reward being able to get to an area because you worked hard to get it!I think it's better if they introduce content in that area that requires you to manipulate game mechanics with masterful precision in order to accomplish the tasks that are there. From an artistic perspective, I'm disappointed that there is a large group of people that aren't seeing my hard work even though they'd like to.

I don't think your against this eitherCorrect. I'm not targeting you specifically with my arguement, but as it stands instant transportation effects my enjoyment of the game.As I suggested above. The water's warm. I don't get the same rush "Just because I went off the beaten path" I get the rush when I did something others had a hard time doing as wellThere is content in the game that covers that. Seeing the sites and taking in the scenery I don't think should be one of them., and it's a trial for everyone who plays. You can't give every kid in the class a gold star for trying without making the gold star feel cheap and pointless.I agree, but you have to give every kid in the class a book so they can learn and eventually, especially in higher education, they need to learn how to teach themselves. They need to revel in their own accomplishments in order to positively reinforce themselves. Instilling that concept is hard to do but is necessary in a free society.

I love some of the ideas proposed in this post. This is forward thinking in my opinion. It's not the same old rehashed argument and actually applies a degree of understanding the other side.

[Quanta]

I'm sorry if you feel that "Forcing" some world exploration is a bad thing, personally I think it should be part of the adventure. I understand you Risk Vs Reward system and I think it's a great idea I looked the thread over earlier and can't find anything to dissagree with really aside from it being extremly time intensive to implement such a system that catter to everyone.

I think it's better to "trick" players into exploring by having your content divided up between different sections of a given area than it is to "force" it upon them by making them take the long way to a given destination. If that sounds like a "theme park", it's because it is, but it's an effective model for a developer if one of your goals is to, at the very least, get people to go near the places where you've put all kinds of cool stuff; from there, you can add elements to the area that will gently nudge the player in a given direction without outright forcing them to go that way to finish their mission. Something as simple as the lighting in an area can accomplish this goal, but I'm sure there are other methods, like additional mobs.

[Rhomagus]

I think it's better to "trick" players into exploring by having your content divided up between different sections of a given area than it is to "force" it upon them by making them take the long way to a given destination. If that sounds like a "theme park", it's because it is, but it's an effective model for a developer if one of your goals is to, at the very least, get people to go near the places where you've put all kinds of cool stuff; from there, you can add elements to the area that will gently nudge the player in a given direction without outright forcing them to go that way to finish their mission. Something as simple as the lighting in an area can accomplish this goal, but I'm sure there are other methods, like additional mobs.

I agree, and Jynx added suggestions that support that style of game design, whether he was aware of it or not.

[Scherwiz]

Hmmm, I don't know how I feel about this.

[User201109011315]

Anyway, immersion is such a vague term, and most of the time a thread like this all comes down to an argument of definitions. "My immersion is better than your immersion".

The thread title should be: "does instant transport effect the game's scope, sense of adventure, etc?"

[Crica]

"does instant transport effect the game's scope, sense of adventure, etc?"

If you use it, I am sure it could.

If you don't use it, no.

You would be adventuring and seeing the scope of the game if you do not use it.

So my advice would be to not use it if you want "adventure and scope".

Why does that have to include making sure I can't use it, however?