Entitled DPS, please stop being entitled

[Adire]

Dang, you're tanking the entire forum right now judging by that OP's edits.

I lol'd. It's sadly true though

But I've got at least 44 healers at this point, so it's all good!

And to address the last few posts:

snip

Guessing you didn't reach much of my post.

First off: He had a healer with him, he had fast queues. Secondly, I chose not to have a positive reaction towards a blatant, rude demand and give someone being mean to me what they wanted, how is that unreasonable? I am NOT going to sit there and take abuse without doing anything. Thirdly, the optional trash in DD is actually pretty out of the way in the first part. You have to stand on pads to open the doors. In the second part, some of the trash patrols a large area and is again, out of the way. Fourthly, I offered a compromise, he intentionally and rudely shot it down and made more demands, as well as threats.

It's sad I have to defend myself in this way from you, and sad that you're getting likes. If only people would read a little more.

Also, please refer to my above mentioning of implied rights. You won't find anything written for implied rights.

If he had been the tank, he'd have more implied, functional rights given by his role in the tie, and I would have acknowledged that, even as the dps. I am never going to order a tank to kill extra mobs as a dps, I don't care who they are. The rights are inherent of the role, not the player, and the role is built to be the best at pulling and built to be the first to go, so in a tie, it makes sense the role best suited to pulling and going ahead gets to, you know, do the pulling.

If you've got two parties deadlocked, and everyone is considered equal, the tank stands out as the one most capable of doing the job of pulling, and therefore functioning as the tiebreaker. It would be great to have another player whose personal rights would trump the role's implied rights, but in 4 mans that's not going to happen, so you go with the next best thing.

I'll post evidence of this in work again: DPS who pull without tank help or heals will die fast. Healers will die fast without tank help. Tanks would die last without heals. Why? Because pulling is part of their intended job, and as such, more in their functional, implied rights. Again, do these general role rights trump personal rights?

I say no, personally. Hence why I said in another post that if I am outnumbered, I will do a clear if the majority wants it, because I see personal rights as superior to a role's inherent, implied rights.

You could have taken the high road here, but instead this was your reaction:



Congrats on being a jerk. Perhaps the person doesn't play on a PC and has a difficult time typing out flowery requests to the tank? Why not try giving people the benefit of the doubt before turning into the bad rebel that you are?

I'm guessing you didn't read that I said he said "no skipping anything" immediately when the barrier at the beginning went down.

He sure had that typed fast for someone you're assuming to be without a keyboard O.o. He literally had it typed as I was coming out of the skipped cutscene blackscreen. And is it really THAT bad adding "please" to the sentence? I used to suffer typing on PS3, he had plenty of time to type it out with please added, trust me. Especially while the healer was buffing everyone.

It's trendy to blame me for having a bad reaction to immediate demands and hostility though, and to make judgements of my character and assumptions about me, that much is clear.

And as I quoted myself above, I offered him a compromise and was going to go back for his mobs if he treated me nicely. He shot it down and insulted me, and made more demands and threats.

What was I supposed to do, give him what he wanted and just stay quiet? Give up the rights of myself and my friend to suit theirs, when tanks have the inherent, implied rights of pulling, even when he refuses to compromise and increase the speed of killing the extra mobs?

I'm sorry, but if defending myself from abuse and having a bad reaction to abuse makes me a jerk, I'll gladly embrace my jerkness. If choosing to be the one to take charge in a tie as the most suited role to take charge for mob pulling makes me a jerk, I'll embrace it. I took the high road when there was a high road that wasn't blocked off. After that, I took the higher road still.

snip.

Please re-read. I think you missed many points in my posts. I did not demand, or even ask that the healer dps. I only asked the BRD to AoE, that was our compromise. Big pulls in DD can be done quite safely as well, the crystal buffs make tanks brick walls. And I didn't do massive pulls anyways, I pulled 9 or so mobs on the first pull. When you've got 3k+ health and each mob is hitting you for maybe 50, maybe a little more or less, 9 mobs really aren't doing any more damage than 3 mobs would be without the buff. In fact, since at least one buff area has mobs in it, you are actually required to do at least one larger pull. That or stand outside the buff area and risk triggering and getting blasted by the Eye's AoE.

They were offensive in numerous ways that I have posted throughout the thread. I did not hold them hostage anymore than they held my friend and me hostage, and we even offered the dps a compromise that he promptly shot down rudely. I also would have gladly done a full run for him if he would have asked nicely. My friend and I got no compromise from them, only "we're doing it our way, even if we have to pull and let you die". I.e, we're going to force you to do what we want via griefing you. And like I said, he had his very first sentence (no skipping anything) typed immediately after the cut scene skip screen was over for me. He either had a keyboard, or he had it pre-typed. Either way, there was no reason he couldn't have taken a few seconds to add please in at the very least.

If I am coming off as "entitled" from my responses to people as you say, it's probably because so many people are missing things that I've said, and some are manipulating the meanings of my words to suit their ends. I realize I tend to make very long posts, but it's not my fault if people choose to not read them and then post without knowing things. Repeating things over and over because people don't read or at least don't understand what they read gets very tiresome.

I don't mind repeating myself given how long my posts can be really though, even if it does get old. I know if I was someone else, I'd probably read my posts but be like ugh, so long. but this blasted 20 post limit really makes repeating myself a pain -.-

By letting DPS die because they pulled extra mobs, you (as a tank) aren't doing your job.

I help with accidental pulls. If a DPS is being continuously and intentionally disruptive by pulling, I do not help them though.

It is not a DPS's job to pull. They are not built for that as part of their intended role. That behavior is widely frowned on by the community as well. Why should they be excused for doing that, and the tank be expected to put up with that? The tank would not even be the aggressor in that situation.

More blaming the victims here.

A tank's job description, written or otherwise, does not entail taking abuse from griefers, which is essentially what that can become.

Please do not encourage DPS to have the mindset that "it's the tank's fault if they don't save me from these mobs I pulled on purpose despite it not being my job to." Tank abuse is not cool.

Technically tank's only job is to keep the bad guys off of everyone else. Tank pulling them just makes it easier to start doing that job. There is no job in this game that is "built to do pulls".



Just to play devil's advocate, you could argue that tanks are the worst at pulling; Shield Lob and Tomahawk only have 15yd range compared to 25yd of every dps skill and using Provoke to pull is just stupid. Well, I guess Monks would be worse.

In reality, though, there is no situation where you just can't run in and hug the mobs, so it doesn't really matter.

This thread certainly was an entertaining read.

Guess that explains why DPS pulls always go so smoothly, huh? DPS were designed to do it, that's why they end up on the floor when they do it or cause major problems.

snip.

Thanks! I love gold stars. The dps should get one too, because it's totally a dps's job to do pulls if they don't like how a tank does them, right?

But yes, if they want to do pulls, they should tank. Being shocked when a tank pulls as they want in the event of a tie is silly. According to some people (you included?), I should have left it up to the dps to pull since it was a tie. It's their job to pull after all, right?

Yet another sensational post, sure to gather the likes of the easily entertained and sure to ignore any relevant points. Kudos to you, sir.

I can't believe you joined a low level dungeon, and expected people not to say that.

Do you know how long the queues can be for those lower level dungeons as a dps? And no, I don't play dps that often. I main healer. But when I queue as a tank, even if I need to get out of there quickly, I am still kind enough to pull everything because it's not all about me.

There are FOUR players in your party, not two and then two more. It's funny you speak of how dps are entitled, yet here you are a person probably level synced...making the people trying to level get out the dungeon quicker instead of getting the experience they joined for in the first place.

Also, this is not your blog. Tumblr is that way >>>>>

Please, for the love of the gods, READ.

The DPS had a healer with him. That means fast queues. So your first point is irrelevant and spawned out of ignorance of what occurred.

I've said time and time again, if people ASK, not DEMAND that I do clears, I do clears.

I offered him a reasonable compromise even though he made demands, if he did his part I'd do a clear for him.

He shot that down and insulted me. They offered no compromise in return.

There was NO MAJORITY. There were 2 people with opposing wishes vs 2 people, both sides refusing to budge after our compromise was refused. Our side because we were being treated like crap and refused to take it and because they refused our reasonable compromise, theirs because they made it clear it was either their way or no way. I attempted to make the tiebreaking call and do my job of pulling and going first, because I am best suited to do so. They attempted to make their own call by griefing me, so the dungeon stopped progressing. Not to mention, as I said, he had a healer.

A quick run followed by another quick queue for him would not have been detrimental to his leveling. In fact, when you have the queue of a healer or tank, especially when there is no aoeing, it's faster for experience gain to not do full clears and just queue again after a run. Refusing to AoE yet wanting all the trash killed would have been detrimental to completing the dungeon in a timely manner, however.

How on earth does that make me entitled?

Does the only way I can be not considered entitled by you people mean giving up my rights and giving in to his demands and abuse? Jeez.

And Last I checked, the forums are for discussion. This thread has discussion going on. Way to try to make me look like an idiot though by posting something intended only to do that without adding anything meaningful or even relevant to the discussion.

snip

The purpose of this thread was for DPS due to this encounter being one with a DPS, I am aware that there are problematic people of each role.

However, please note. I did not make demands. I did not even have time to say anything before the DPS made his demand. He immediately made it clear that he would not be allowing me to make my case, immediately made it clear that he would not hear it.

I offered a compromise, he said no in a rude manner and proceeded to threaten me.

I'll say it again. If people ask me nicely, I will do clears. If I am outnumbered, I will do clears. I offered a small compromise, asked that he only press his one aoe button, that would have gotten him his clear. He refused.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be his slave AND give away my and my friends' rights to a faster dungeon completion even though there was a tie between interests (our personal rights are equal to theirs after all), AND pull every trash mob and watch him single target everything, even large groups. We were willing to take the time to clear if he was willing to press one button. He was not, and expected us to still cater to him and lengthen the dungeon time extremely as a result, therefore denying us any compromise at all.

I simply went on to do my job, they went on to grief me to attempt to coerce me to do it their way.

They refused to accept anything other than 100% their way.

And as I've said, I play all three roles. DPS, tank, and healer. I actually main a dps class. I still give tanks the most weight in their choice during a tie without compromise being accepted, even if I'm a dps. I know what it's like to be on that side, even though in this case he had a healer queuing runs with him, so he did not have typical dps queues.

If he had asked me in a way that refers to be as a human being rather than demand something of me like I'm his slave, things would have been much different. If he had accepted the small compromise we offered, things would have been much different. Instead, we were insulted, griefed, and told a resounding NO to everything we said. It should be small wonder that things broke down.

Apparently though (not referring to you specifically, your post was actually one of the more calm ones on this thread), some people think I'm at fault for everything even though we were the only ones mature enough to offer compromise and address the others has humans rather than as objects and means to an end. Is it really that unreasonable that after this, and considering there was already a tie, that we refused to give in to them?

How many people here would be more convinced to give $10 to a homeless person who asks for it nicely vs one who walks up and demands it, yet you still offer them $5 because you're agreeable, and they refuse to hear it, demanding $10 because they won't accept less?

I know I'd be appalled at the lack of gratitude and lack of being treated like a human being at the very least, and after enough of the behavior, would seriously contemplate not giving them anything.

[Skivvy]

I'm guessing you didn't read that I said he said "no skipping anything" immediately when the barrier at the beginning went down.

He sure had that typed fast for someone you're assuming to be without a keyboard O.o. He literally had it typed as I was coming out of the skipped cutscene blackscreen. And is it really THAT bad adding "please" to the sentence? I used to suffer typing on PS3, he had plenty of time to type it out with please added, trust me. Especially while the healer was buffing everyone.

It's trendy to blame me for having a bad reaction to immediate demands and hostility though, and to make judgements of my character and assumptions about me, that much is clear.

And as I quoted myself above, I offered him a compromise and was going to go back for his mobs if he treated me nicely. He shot it down and insulted me, and made more demands and threats.

What was I supposed to do, give him what he wanted and just stay quiet? Give up the rights of myself and my friend to suit theirs, when tanks have the inherent, implied rights of pulling, even when he refuses to compromise and increase the speed of killing the extra mobs?

I'm sorry, but if defending myself from abuse and having a bad reaction to abuse makes me a jerk, I'll gladly embrace my jerkness. If choosing to be the one to take charge in a tie as the most suited role to take charge for mob pulling makes me a jerk, I'll embrace it. I took the high road when there was a high road that wasn't blocked off. After that, I took the higher road still.

I don't get why I'm getting quoted/responded to again, but I am now starting to believe that you're embellsing a few bits of the story. From your original OP:

So, I just queued as PLD for DD to help a friend get it done for GC quests.

Immediately upon the dungeon starting, I get this from a dps:

"no skipping anything"

Being the rebel I am, and the fact that my friend just needed the dungeon done asap (and I'm the tank, so obviously the game is designed for me to lead the pace of the dungeon), and the fact that he demanded I bow to his whims rather than ask me to, I pulled the first room into the crystal buff. The WHM, who is the other dps' friend, is not holying. The other dps, who is a BRD, is not aoeing.

So as soon as the dungeon started, you get the request/demand, and you right away decide to be a "rebel" and make a gigantic pull to screw with them. There were no attacks, threats or abuse before this point, it's no wonder he may have had choice words to say to you (if in fact he did). You guys deserved each other it seems.

At this point for me, pics or it didn't happen

[Adire]

snip

I'm not responding to you again. I moved the quotes from my OP to this page to reduce the clutter in my OP, if you had taken a moment to read that or at least notice that they were gone from my OP, you would have seen that. But alas, people post as if they've read even when they haven't, and I find myself repeating myself yet again to the willfully ignorant.

Anyways, before I even had time to say anything at all, I was ordered by him to not skip anything. Not asked, ordered. This is abusive and insulting, as I am not his slave to order around. I did not do a "gigantic pull", I pulled as I always do in DD. I pulled the first set of 3 mobs into the crystal buff with the other 3 mobs, then he ran off and pulled a few other mobs and brought them to me. I then asked him to AoE, he refused in a rude manner and basically told us to shut up and do what he wanted.

If you've done DD, you should know that the crystal buff makes even this many mobs hit like babies. There were 9 or so mobs total in the buff, that is not a lot of damage at all. Go try it if you don't believe me! Even pulling the entire first half of the dungeon into the crystal buffs is manageable damage with decent gear.


And as much as I'd like to give you pictures, I have logged out since then. If you know of a way to get chat logs, please inform me. I have nothing to hide. You don't have to believe me, but assuming I'm lying without any reason to assume that is not any better. If you find any inconsistencies in my story, please do post about it. The above perceived inconsistency stemmed from you not reading and missing things I said, and I have addressed this false inconsistency once again above. That is your problem, not mine. I've repeated everything I said there multiple times throughout the thread.

Given how quick you are to judge my character without even knowing me and how quick you are to jump on everything I say, assuming the worst each time, and responding to general statements I make by taking jabs at my person, I'm starting to think nothing will please you though. If I had pics, at this point I'd have suspicions that you'd accuse me of doctoring them.

[Skivvy]

I'm not responding to you again. I moved the quotes from my OP to this page to reduce the clutter in my OP, if you had taken a moment to read that or at least notice that they were gone from my OP, you would have seen that. But alas, people post as if they've read even when they haven't, and I find myself repeating myself yet again to the willfully ignorant.

Anyways, before I even had time to say anything at all, I was ordered by him to not skip anything. Not asked, ordered. This is abusive and insulting, as I am not his slave to order around. I did not do a "gigantic pull", I pulled as I always do in DD. I pulled the first set of 3 mobs into the crystal buff with the other 3 mobs, then he ran off and pulled a few other mobs and brought them to me. I then asked him to AoE, he refused in a rude manner and basically told us to shut up and do what he wanted.

If you've done DD, you should know that the crystal buff makes even this many mobs hit like babies. There were 9 or so mobs total in the buff, that is not a lot of damage at all. Go try it if you don't believe me! Even pulling the entire first half of the dungeon into the crystal buffs is manageable damage with decent gear.


And as much as I'd like to give you pictures, I have logged out since then. If you know of a way to get chat logs, please inform me. I have nothing to hide. You don't have to believe me, but assuming I'm lying without any reason to assume that is not any better. If you find any inconsistencies in my story, please do post about it. The above perceived inconsistency stemmed from you not reading and missing things I said, and I have addressed this false inconsistency once again above. That is your problem, not mine. I've repeated everything I said there multiple times throughout the thread.

Given how quick you are to judge my character without even knowing me and how quick you are to jump on everything I say, assuming the worst each time, and responding to general statements I make by taking jabs at my person, I'm starting to think nothing will please you though. If I had pics, at this point I'd have suspicions that you'd accuse me of doctoring them.

It's amusing how many times you've blamed someone for not listening, but I don't think you even know what you're writing anymore. As of the time of this post, the message I quoted in my previous post did not state anywhere that you were consolidating messages to get them off the main page, merely:

And to address the last few posts:

I'm sorry that I'm not going back through your entire post history to double-check for any random edits.

If you don't have a reasonable answer for someone, you claim that they aren't reading or that they are judging your character without even knowing you. Hate to break it to you, you aired your dirty laundry on a public forum, you gave us the right to judge you based on the story and ever-changing details that you've provided.

Feel free to reply if you like, and by all means, blame me again for not reading (lucky time #3!), but I'm done with this thread. It's clear you're not willing to have a reasonable conversation as you brush off any dissenting voices as a personal attack on you. After seeing that play out in this thread several times, I truly am curious what actually happened in that dungeon.

[Adire]

snip

My point is, when the problem at hand is that there is a tie about the issue of mob pulling

It seems you missed this bit of my quote, the bit that adds the entire context to my sentence at that. I was referring to when there is a TIE, the tank has the most weight. Someone has to be the tiebreaker, why not let the person whose job is to pull be the rightful tiebreaker if no one else can come to any agreement? The community already lets tanks pull by default and disapproves of when dps/healers do it, so the insinuation is there that they already have the most weight for determining when/how pulls happen.

I'm glad we agree that being demanded to do something is very wrong though. If he had asked me nicely, I would have done the clear for him. Same for if he would have agreed to AoE.

snip

Edit: Please go to this post if you want to see the posts I addressed in my OP originally (moved it there to reduce the clutter in the OP):

Yep, you aren't reading. That's right there in my OP. I also had on there for a while today that I'd be trimming the OP down when my post limit reset.

Have a nice day, you just proved my point. If you aren't willing to read, then please do not post with the tenacity of someone who has read. Choosing to be ignorant about something and then speaking about it anyways is not a good thing to do.

I am more than willing to have reasonable conversation when people post who bother to read what I say and when they don't jab at me personally, even if they disagree with me. You can find plenty of examples of that in my thread.

[Skivvy]

It seems you missed this bit of my quote, the bit that adds the entire context to my sentence at that. I was referring to when there is a TIE, the tank has the most weight. Someone has to be the tiebreaker, why not let the person whose job is to pull be the rightful tiebreaker if no one else can come to any agreement? The community already lets tanks pull by default and disapproves of when dps/healers do it, so the insinuation is there that they already have the most weight for determining when/how pulls happen.

I'm glad we agree that being demanded to do something is very wrong though. If he had asked me nicely, I would have done the clear for him. Same for if he would have agreed to AoE.





Yep, you aren't reading. That's right there in my OP. I also had on there for a while today that I'd be trimming the OP down when my post limit reset.

Have a nice day, you just proved my point. If you aren't willing to read, then please do not post with the tenacity of someone who has read. Choosing to be ignorant about something and then speaking about it anyways is not a good thing to do.

I am more than willing to have reasonable conversation when people post who bother to read what I say and when they don't jab at me personally, even if they disagree with me. You can find plenty of examples of that in my thread.

One last thing, then I'm really out. Why on earth would I go back and reference your original post in this thread? You're right. I didn't read it again. Once was enough, and as the conversation continued through multiple pages, and I've been responding to CURRENT comments as they are posted, not ninja edits on a post 10+ pages back. You're seriously grasping at straws with all of this. Have fun!

[Jynx]

Thanks! I love gold stars. The dps should get one too, because it's totally a dps's job to do pulls if they don't like how a tank does them, right?

But yes, if they want to do pulls, they should tank. Being shocked when a tank pulls as they want in the event of a tie is silly. According to some people (you included?), I should have left it up to the dps to pull since it was a tie. It's their job to pull after all, right?

Yet another sensational post, sure to gather the likes of the easily entertained and sure to ignore any relevant points. Kudos to you, sir.

Sure the DPS was no better than you assuming he was allowed to dictate the run from the getgo. He however isn't on the forums telling us that he believes this exact thing that your spouting.

(and I'm the tank, so obviously the game is designed for me to lead the pace of the dungeon)

I would be calling him out as well, this is a common problem with every player in the game not just tanks, healers, DPS it's a general player thing they assume that the duty finder is going to have a party full of people tailor made to do exactly what they want to do. Like others have said in this post if you want to dictate how the run will go down don't duty finder...Preform or use the party finder where you can say "Speed runz only This tank calls the shots!"

otherwise you saying you dictate the speed of the run is like saying a Tank can dictate that it's cool to ditch a Darkhold run after the first room because he and his mate were there for EXP only and leave the other members in the dust because hell he is the tank and as you said.

I'm the tank, so obviously the game is designed for me to lead the pace

Using the same logic just up and leaving the run is a tanks choice and everyone should just say "Well that's ok we better vote kick you so you don't have to eat the penalty, SE needs to change it so tanks can freely leave whenever they want because it's up to them to be the leader anyways"

But you know just being a sensationalist.

[Adire]

Sure the DPS was no better than you assuming he was allowed to dictate the run from the getgo. He however isn't on the forums telling us that he believes this exact thing that your spouting.

The DPS was not intended by SE to do pulls or accepted by most of the community to do it, and was the one who resorted to griefing to get his way and denied compromise, so he has no justifiable reason to complain.

It's really that simple.

Yep, you are being a sensationalist. Because you're ignoring the facts. There was a tie. I was the tank. It's my job to pull, so I pulled. The dps pulled too, but that's not his job. The community overall frowns on that, so does SE given how obstructive they made doing that to gameplay progression.

You're also STILL acting as if I dicated 3 people. There was a TIE. Ignored this fact, people who don't read much into my post will miss it, see your post, then think I'm a villain.

And you're STILL ignoring where I have said that if tanks are outnumbered, they should do what the group wants or leave. You're STILL ignoring that I said that I do that, and even do clears if I'm just asked nicely. You ignored this fact too, but the folks who don't read my post won't know any better.

Would it make you happier if I start allowing the dps the most say in ties when I'm the tank?

What gives the DPS the right to make the final call on pulls in a tie between player interests? Certainly not their role design....

You keep on being you though, if posting sensationally, quoting and twisting particular things I've said without taking into account the context of my whole post is who you are, and posting funny gifs to distract people from the argument and facts to gain support from people who are uninformed is what you like, you keep doing that. I'm sure you'll immediately get in the good graces of people just for the gif, regardless of post accuracy.

I'll stay away from manipulation, personally. You should do the same.

[Jynx]

There was a tie. I was the tank.

What's your point?

If there is a "Tie" and both parties can't agree then somebody needs to step up and say this isn't working and just leave. I'm not even talking about your specific dungeon encounter it's the pure fact you keep saying that you have the right to do whatever you want just because your the tank.

You don't, you have as much right to pull as the DPS who was pulling obviously the DPS is going to wind up getting the party killed, or severly slow down the dungeon. That doesn't make you justified in doing the same thing. Either adapt or leave, the DPS and his friend are left to stew in their own ignorance and you are free to go find another group who will hopefully want to speed-burn the dungeon instead of full clearing. Wether you like it or not the duty finder isn't designed for anyone to call the shots regardless of their roll design.

[Adire]

snip

My point is, when the problem at hand is that there is a tie about the issue of mob pulling, the person who does the mob pulling (the tank) should have the most weight in making the final call.

In any profession, the authority on a field is going to have superior weight behind their opinion in that field than other people. Does that mean they have more value than other people as a person overall? No!

The same concept applies here. When pulling mobs is the problem, the tank should get the final say about it in a tie. Does it mean that their rights as a person trump the others? No. But when personal rights are tied, it's best to give the final say so to the authority on the matter, in this case, the person playing the job whose job entails pulling mobs.

A dps trying to make the final call on that in a tie when it is in no way part of their role's intended function is like an amateur photographer being in the room with 2 other photographers and one surgeon who are all given equal role rights in the surgery. Should they all be considered equal in rights as human beings? Yes. Should they all be considered equal in rights for deciding how a surgery should proceed? No.

Would you want the photographers being equal to the surgeon in a surgery? I know I wouldn't. In a tie here, the surgeon should make the final call.

Community approval of tanks pulling vs disapproval of dps pulling exists for a reason you know.