Entitled DPS, please stop being entitled

[Ceodore]

Given the obvious venom in this thread's title, how the title generalizes dps, then the quickness to seem calm, polite, and apologetic, I'm inclined to say that OP has a tendency (as they have admitted) to be a little hot headed initially and then able to calm themselves down after the fact. Frankly, this is a bad quality for anyone wanting to be a "leader", and if they view being a tank as being a "leader" of the group, then I do agree that they should probably reserve being the "leader tank" for just their friends so that fewer people suffer through this type of volcanic "leadership". One less tank isn't going to make or break the queue times anyways, and one more isn't going to make or break them either.

Frankly, editing your post to seem less vindictive doesn't change the facts of how vindictive the original post must have been. For someone who says they like to think before they speak, obviously you didn't think before you posted. As a "leader" plan to have proper responses ready at the moment they are expected, not after the fact. In this case, you probably should have known ahead of time that this kind of title would get back lash, and that your original post before edits would have gotten flack for its venom which you apparently have edited out. If you were a politician, as one of your previous posts mentioned, you would have been quoted on your first post, not the subsequent edits, and crucified for it. I didn't read the original before your edits, but from your own admittance, I can come to the conclusion that you were pretty harsh in your initial response, and have now become the apologist for it, while trying to still back your claim. Frankly, that's a hard thing to do, when now people don't really know if the story is 100% true or not. Mention of screenshots was in a few posts back too. That's usually a good thing to have also. From an FC leader stand point, I don't take any actions against my FC members without screenshots of what they said or did. Why should anyone take you at your word (especially after editing your original post to such a degree that you claim) without any proof as to your word's honesty?

That's neither here nor there though. You now know that the appropriate response to someone being what you assume to be rude to you, is a calm, VERBAL, response which can not be left up to question, especially when you want them to follow you as their "leader". I think and agree that your compromise, your requests, and everything you wanted from the run was completely within the realm of acceptable, however, just the smallest slip up in behavior that can be taken the wrong way can mean everything else good you wanted or did can be tainted. Also, the forums definitely weren't the place to come for a bunch of sympathy or apology. Come back to tanking when you find a, QUICK, calm, and level head for these kinds of situations, and I hope to not see you back here on the forums with so much complaining, since you will have learned the proper way to handle and defuse these situations. And again, your feelings, and those of the dps you mentioned mean nothing to me, all that I care about is for you to act with propriety as a tank, even in the face of impropriety. Because, what did being rude gain that DPS? Nothing, absolutely nothing but your anger at his rudeness. As you have requested propriety, then you should return such a response swiftly too. If you've learned nothing else, then that's fine.

I don't think this is really an argument anymore as much as it's boiled down to a discussion with a few trolls thrown in. I predict it should come to an end some time soon honestly, if people can ignore the trollish people long enough.

[Adire]

snip

As badly as you want to believe I'm a bad leader Ceodore, this thread was actually the product of built up frustrations and needing to vent, not the product of temper tantrums that frequent my behavior. As a tank, I have long been treated as an object frequently, and this was a glaring example that finally caused me to have a temporary break. But yes, you are one of the reasons I will no longer be queuing as a tank. The community thanks you for that. I won't be plaguing the DF anymore with my terrible personality, the days of me clearing for people who treat me with respect are over. I won't be subjecting anyone else to my "volcanic leadership", if being volcanic means being willing to compromise even after abuse, being willing to clear if outvoted or treated with respect, but being unwilling to be used as a tool and means to an end.

And if my commendations say anything, they say a lot of people like the way I tank.

You said a lot to me about yourself when you told me you didn't care about my feelings but expected me to care about the feelings of others, and you lost credibility in my eyes. You should practice what you preach. I cannot take you seriously when you preach how wrong and uncaring I am despite the fact that I did many things that showed I cared in both this situation and in how I tank in general, while you tell me outright you don't care about my feelings.

And yes, I realized my original post could have been found offensive. I edited it to include all of my views on this matter and admitted to regretting the wording. You really have set a double standard here though. If I admit I do wrong, you still hound me. If I don't admit it, you still hound me. If the third post I posted in the thread didn't make you aware that I am not an evil person though, I don't know what would. My OP was not intended to be vindictive, it just did not include all of my views. The fact that I main DPS (NIN)and treat tanks the same way I ask to be treated as a tank, with respect, should say all that needs to be said about me. If I was biased and evil, I'd be helping myself most by being biased towards DPS...Continuing to dangle this in my face is not necessary however, as I am aware I worded the OP badly and now have the benefit of hindsight, and have fixed it.

And yes, if I was a politician, I know this wouldn't matter. I know I would have been crucified. The thing is, I am not a politician. I do not wish to be a politician. Why society values a politician who lies about their feelings on a matter rather than speaks up front about this is a discussion for another time though, and is probably why we have so many corrupt politicians these days. Honesty is not a virtue anymore.

[SummerSkye]

I cannot WAIT until 2017 to necro this thread! lol!

[Ceodore]

I didn't ask you to care about other people's feelings either, I asked you to show propriety, vastly different. Why do you ever make assumptions about anything when your assumptions are so miserable? Why do you assume yourself to be the leader even? The healer would be better suited to that role, as they more or less dictate most aspects of the dungeon, whether purposely or by accident. Healer isn't as well geared? You won't be doing as big of pulls. No healer? You won't be able to do as much as if there was no tank but a healer was present. You try to make me out to be a hypocrite, but you fail at it miserably because you make assumptions about what I say instead of about what it actually means.

I was aware that you edited your original post, I even stated that I was, and dangling something you did in your face is obviously necessary because you still don't seem to get it. Your actions and what you say have a massive impact on the perception of who you are as a person, even if they were in the past. Frankly, from the comments about your original post, it must have been pretty bad, especially to warrant this much of an angry response from others. I didn't say that society values a politician who lies. A politician is actually more crucified because of their opinions on a subject when their opinions on a subject are massively immoral, or if they attempt to change their statement. I didn't say you lied about your feelings, but that you changed your post, which shows you are flip flopping, and brings to question the honesty of your statement. Your assurance that your statements are true are suddenly brought into question this way. The content of your original post is of no importance anymore. It's the actions you have taken since then which include editing your post and then apologizing for the post after the fact but still claiming foul was done to you. The integrity you display drops because of it.

So stop assuming things, stop making inferences, stop thinking people know what your actions mean, because they probably don't mean the same thing to someone else. If you can't handle the bad apples correctly, then you're in for a rude awakening. There are many more just like them. Either get a thicker skin, or get out of the spot light. Man/Woman up, and learn to roll with the punches, or plan to be back here more often whining, and believe me, the more you whine, the less people are inclined to listen.

I don't "Believe" anything. You could be making this all up for attention for all I know. I base my opinion on you out of the actions you have taken, not in just the first post, but all your posts after. The way you talk about your original post, how you wish you could change the title of the thread, how you admit that the original post could have been offensive. These are all things that are being said in hindsight, which should have been realized when you first posted. This is what I am talking about. "Leaders" don't get a chance to be apologetic, much like a politician, which is why I used that reference.

This reminds me of one of my FC's former officers, who mistyped some very hurtful and embarrassing things about one of my FC members which was suppose to be in a tell, but ended up in the company's chat. Despite his apology, we lost 6 members who were offended and embarrassed for the other member. He's now gone from my company, and almost never plays anymore because of the far reaching response it generated from the rest of the social network I gathered.

[XgungraveX]

the keyboard warriors in this thread is real...

[Adire]

snip

You do realize that human emotions, i.e. feelings, are why people are expected to show propriety in the first place right? If humans had no emotions, do you think people would care about morals?

Also, yes, a tank relies greatly on the healer. However, for a good example of who has the most weight in determining pulls, please refer to who the community has designated to do pulls: tanks. If the tank is pulling too much for the healer to handle, then of course it's the tank's fault. If a healer stops healing in order to get what they want, as what happened in this dungeon, then that is an abuse of the role. A tank pulling within the comfort zone of the healer is not abuse of the role, because it is part of their role to do that. If a tank is pulling more than the healer wants, that's a problem, but the healer using their power by refusing to heal and to dictate everything 100% is wrong. And I have never advocated that tanks get to overrule the majority.

People were getting the idea that I was exclusively stripping DPS of their rights and saying tanks get to control everything, this idea was incorrect. If you read posts I posted afterwards, this should become apparent. I am not "flip flopping". You can look at posts that came soon after my OP, before I edited it significantly, to see hints that I was not pro-tank-master-race. Yet even after these posts, people continued to hound me. Why? Because they judged me off of first impressions, they judged the book by its cover so to speak. If they had read a few posts after my OP, they should have realized that my OP was too narrow to reflect my views entirely.

Examples:

Besides, if we want to get specific and technical here, it was 2 wishes against 2 wishes. Me and my friend vs him and his friend. So who should get to decide what happens?

(Hint that I'd do things different vs a majority. Posted 12 minutes after my OP.)

As I've already said, if people ask, I typically give them much more listening. If more people want exp than don't want it, I typically go along with it. If I didn't want to for whatever reason, I'd simply leave.

(Hint that I would have done things differently if treated with respect and if asked, and that I follow the majority. Posted less than an hour after my OP)

Foul was done to me, because posts soon after the OP increasingly clarified that I was not what people were believing me to be, yet people were still crucifying me. Hence why I asked people to read. Such posts continued, so I simply added their logic to my OP. Yet even after my OP was further detailed with my beliefs and the posts remained on the front pages, the crucifying continued. The fact that they were there from almost the beginning should tell you that my logic was there the whole time. Only going by my OP and not taking into account what I said immediately after it is taking things out of context. When you listen to someone, you should listen to everything they say, not just some of it.

I did not have a sudden change of heart, as I have been tanking this way since the beginning. Failure to include it in the OP doesn't mean that I did not believe in these values.

And I'll say it again. I've got thick skin, it took me 6 or so months of this to finally reach this point. Every person has a point where they need to vent, if you don't, then please tell me where I can sign up to be tutored by you. And as I've said, I will not be back here to "whine". The apathy and hostility shown here has made me realize it's pointless.

[Ceodore]

I don't actually have to vent much, but I don't let things get under my skin to begin with.Why would I? In the scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. This is why your response isn't following with propriety. This is the point I have been trying to make. It simply doesn't matter what he said. In the scheme of all things, it's not even a foot note on life, yet you feel the need to blow it up and call foul with a forum post. Why? Because you let it get under your skin, 6 months, 1 year, a decade, doesn't matter. You snapped, came here, and whined. I know you weren't stripping anyone of their rights, and I understand the tank's role and rights perhaps better than even you. Your situation is minor compared to what has been said and done to me. Yet I have never once claimed foul was done to me here. As far as it's ever gone was mentioning what was done to me to my FC, and that's where it ended, because I don't need the sympathy or the attention from an entire gaming community to vent to. Also, please show me where this specifically mentions "feelings".

pro·pri·e·ty
p(r)əˈprīədē/
noun
the state or quality of conforming to conventionally accepted standards of behavior or morals.
"he always behaved with the utmost propriety"
synonyms: decorum, respectability, decency, correctness, protocol, appropriateness, suitability, good manners, courtesy, politeness, rectitude, morality, civility, modesty, demureness; sobriety, refinement, discretion
"she behaves with the utmost propriety"
etiquette, convention(s), social grace(s), niceties, one's Ps and Qs, protocol, standards, civilities, formalities, accepted behavior, good form, the done thing, the thing to do, punctilio
"he was careful to preserve the proprieties in public"
antonyms: indecorum
the details or rules of behavior conventionally considered to be correct.
plural noun: proprieties
"she's a great one for the proprieties"
the condition of being right, appropriate, or fitting.
"they questioned the propriety of certain investments made by the council"

This isn't about your feelings or their feelings. It's about behaving to standards that would not warrant reproach, which is obviously not the case here. It has been agreed upon that the DPS' actions were imporper, but so were yours to a certain degree, in this case, failing to respond before pulling anything. No, it isn't as big of a deal as what he did, but it became a big deal obviously, because you decided to respond to impropriety with impropriety.

[Seiryuukishi]

the keyboard warriors in this thread is real...

Yes you are...

[Adire]

snip

It doesn't mention feelings. You are evading my point though. Are you denying that emotions are why the concept of propriety exists? We don't have to limit this discussion you know. There is more science behind the concept of propriety than a dictionary can explain. Not every word in the dictionary that is an effect and has a cause mentions its cause.

And I think you should look at some of Krylo's previous posts, particularly this one:

snip

Everyone is continuing to assume I had bad intent when I pulled because I did not immediately go out of my way to do what he wanted. Not only does this dungeon make it arguably more convenient to get the first few mandatory mobs out of the way first, but this double standard really does seem to exist. You may be putting some blame on the DPS now Ceodore, but don't you think pulling first and getting things underway before going out of my way to get the extras when demanded to in the first place may not have been all that bad of a reaction? Is it really worth the extreme hostility shown to me by some people, especially given that I showed him good will even after he did what he did?

Why I didn't pull extra mobs immediately was for a few reasons: I did the first pull I've always done in there, even when I'm doing a full clear. I did not know what to say immediately other than something like "What's your problem dude?", so I chose to be quiet and exercise self control, and quickly came up with a reasonable response to him after discussing it with my friend. It's not like it takes a while to get to the first crystal buff, it's right near the entrance. And I helped him kill the mobs he brought. The only thing even remotely arguably close to "ill will" and "impropriety" I showed was that I took a moment to decide how to continue rather than immediately respond with good will to his bad will. I hesitate to call a lapse in social skill without the benefit of hindsight that everyone here has "impropriety".

Edit: Could he have seen it as me being unwilling to work with him at first? Maybe. But me picking up the mobs he gathered should have fixed that, and me telling him he'd get his clear if he AoE'd should have made my willingness to reason with him known and turn his frown upside down. Instead, he thought it best to demand further that we give him 100% of what he wants, and went as far as to tell me if I didn't do a clear, he'd use the healer as leverage and let me die.

I may not be as socially skilled as you are to know exactly what to say to him immediately, but I don't see how what I did was so terrible. And if anything, me helping him kill the mobs he pulled should have redeemed me, as I still helped him get what he wanted and did not hold it against him. If I made any mistake by not pulling the mobs myself, I rectified it by helping him kill them when he did.

What I did after the pull should have given some insight into my overall intent, to both him and to forum users.

[nuyu11]

the keyboard warriors in this thread is real...

Better polish it on warrior skills.