Entitled DPS, please stop being entitled

[silentwindfr]

WoW was way easier on tanking than what we have here. no stuff to spam for retake the aggros or stuff like this. anyway, that not the trouble, i wasn't aiming anyone in particular, but i'm clear, in DF tank is the lead.... that must'nt be changed or seriously the number of tank will drop more and more. because you will have no fun at all at play tank. they have oversimplified cycle of skill, without this control over the situation we are not different than a pet and will make the experience simply unbearable.

[Jynx]

DF tank is the lead.... that must'nt be changed.

No worries it wont be changed because it's not the reality. Tank is as much the lead as the healer or DPS, team effort in team based gameplay I know it's hard when you feel entitled because of your overall required presence.

Shame that DF itself is the cause of most of this attitude being so prevalent. Used to be if you were a knob in party content you would wind up blackballed by people who actually want to play the game, tank or not you would have a hard time worming your way into group content because you actually had to live with the social repurcussions of being a jerk.

[silentwindfr]

snips

i will be blunt, try to do a dungeon where the lead is not the tank, please try and be the tank!
it's painfull, you are simply repeat your oversimplified cycle and can't even decide on what you gonna hit first, since someone point you what you must pull or stuff like this.

indeed dungeon are teamwork, but each role have a jobs.... the dps have more complexe cycle and tool for burn down the monster as fast as possible while avoiding useless damage
healer must heal the tank and make sure the team survive while be carefull for themself.
the tank is the lead into this, he will be the one to decide if he can or cannot pull more or less. the one to know when he can or must use a Cooldown that will lessen the burden on the healer.

we can argue all the day about this, but even in a team you need a leader, why? because if you don't have a leader everyone will go wherever they want while doing whatever they want. you need someone to point where the team must focus them attention and effort. tank are the one that must do it, because they can survive what they gonna pull, not the dps nor the healer.... especially since we have only one provoke with a huge cd.... the game it's make around this! you can try to make the tank look like the bad guys.

but that the reality of the game in dungeon. now that don't means that tank have all right, that a given, but that don't mean that the other have more right than the tank. it's true the other can ask the tank to do something, but it's too the right of the tank to refuse. impose your will to the tank is more rude than a tank ignoring the will of the group. you talk of jerk and stuff.... me i'm talking about respect. that quite different.

[SDaemon]

WoW was way easier on tanking than what we have here. no stuff to spam for retake the aggros or stuff like this. anyway, that not the trouble, i wasn't aiming anyone in particular, but i'm clear, in DF tank is the lead.... that must'nt be changed or seriously the number of tank will drop more and more. because you will have no fun at all at play tank. they have oversimplified cycle of skill, without this control over the situation we are not different than a pet and will make the experience simply unbearable.

While the tank is in charge of pulling and holding aggro that doesn't make them the boss. Their skill level and role are just the most pronounced when setting the pace of the dungeon/content. The tank could want to skip every trash pack skip-able, but if the rest of the group wants to down the things for exp, whelp the tank is going to have fun tanking those trash packs.

[silentwindfr]

The tank could want to skip every trash pack skip-able, but if the rest of the group wants to down the things for exp, whelp the tank is going to have fun tanking those trash packs.

tank are not the slave of the group.... like i have said, even if the 3 other want, if the tank don't want he is not forced to it. it's not a democracy... it's fair, everyone is there for have fun, if the tank don't want to pull everything.... he is not forced to go with the will of the group. if you want to make clean sweep in dungeon use PF!

[SDaemon]

tank are not the slave of the group.... like i have said, even if the 3 other want, if the tank don't want he is not forced to it. it's not a democracy... it's fair, everyone is there for have fun, if the tank don't want to pull everything.... he is not forced to go with the will of the group. if you want to make clean sweep in dungeon use PF!

The group isn't the tank's slave harem. If the other 3 in the party want to do something, the tank has three choices; to do it, leave or be kicked. The party group is most certainly a democracy. If the tank doesn't want to tank the trash the rest of the group wants to fight then he is free to leave.

[Jynx]

if you want to make clean sweep in dungeon use PF!

If you want to set your own rules I suggest you take your own advice. In the duty finder your at the mercy of the majority, if you don't like it feel free to leave and save everyone the hassle of cattering to your special snowflake syndrom.

[Rendecrow]

tank are not the slave of the group.... like i have said, even if the 3 other want, if the tank don't want he is not forced to it. it's not a democracy... it's fair, everyone is there for have fun, if the tank don't want to pull everything.... he is not forced to go with the will of the group. if you want to make clean sweep in dungeon use PF!

The tank is not the slave of the group? But the way you phrase it, it seems to me that you are suggesting that the group is the slave of the tank... Why should three people have to follow what one person wants? Pretty sure the one person should follow the three.

EDIT: That being said I fully understand that groups need a leader, but just because you are the tank does not make you the default leader. If you are in a 4 man party and the other 3 people don't want you to be leader, then you are not the leader even if you are the tank.

[GenJoe]

The tank is not the slave of the group? But the way you phrase it, it seems to me that you are suggesting that the group is the slave of the tank... Why should three people have to follow what one person wants? Pretty sure the one person should follow the three.

You guys are all missing the point here..
Nobody HAS TO FOLLOW ANYBODY. If you don't like it and you're in the majority, KICK the oddball.
If you're in the minority, don't cry when you get kicked, OR leave before it comes to that.

It's just the state of things that healers and tanks have an advantage in this regard because they can requeue much quicker than dps, but is anyone seriously going to argue about the ethics of that?


P.S. Have you noticed lately that Healers are the ones that actually get instaqueued? Not the tanks? Just some food for thought if you thought you had no leverage against a dicky tank, he has to wait in DF too, albeit only a few minutes.

[Callinon]

EDIT: That being said I fully understand that groups need a leader, but just because you are the tank does not make you the default leader. If you are in a 4 man party and the other 3 people don't want you to be leader, then you are not the leader even if you are the tank.

Actually it does, because that's what "default" means.

Absolutely if the tank is new or if someone else is in a better position to lead a group (maybe they know the dungeon better, maybe they can explain things better, who knows) then sure they should lead the group. But in any random DF group, the tank is the default leader, and 999/1000 groups will just expect the tank to know how the dungeon works. Tanks know this and so they have to go in with the mindset that they're in charge because it's going to be expected that they be in charge.

That all being said, sometimes the tank is new. Sometimes the tank isn't super familiar with a dungeon. Generally when this happens, the tank will say so and someone will usually speak up and help explain things.

In the OP's example though, the dps just barked out a demand right off the bat like it was macroed or something. This is not the same as trying to lead a group. This is trying to commandeer a group. And it's trying to do so without first knowing anything about how that group was going to perform in the first place. Now I'd imagine that if instead the line had been "I need exp, could we please pull the universe?" that would've been fine. It's impossible to know for sure because it didn't happen that way.

I've been playing MMOs since they were text-based and called MUDs (nearly 20 years). I've played every role. And I feel confident in saying that the tank is EXPECTED to lead the group. Especially a random group.