Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide

[Charybdis]

With a base 3.0 recast timer and over a 10 minute test, it would be 200 casts. 3 sec / 600 sec = 200 swings.

If I were to test it with an absurd amount of spell speed and let the Enhanced Pet Actions buff proc at will (currently turning off pet attack when the buff procs) and using the same 10 minute model it'd be quite easy to see an increase in swing numbers. The damage wouldn't matter, just seeing if there's a big difference in swing numbers. Would require strict 10 minute time limit.

[Sleigh]

After that, if you get into Dreadwyrm Trance and have 2 stacks, it means you are delaying Dreadwyrm Trance a lot, and probably Aetherflow as well (it time gates DT, you never ever want to not use it every minute). You don't want to do that. After your opener, you basically want to use Festers on CD only delay DT to ensure your dots are up so that you can Ruin throughout it's duration.

Eh? Most DWT cycles go R2 > Aetherflow + DWT > M2 > 3D + Fester (or flipped around if the DoTs were on there already) > R3 spam > R2 with 2s left > Fester + Deathflare. The only times they deviate much are if you had to dodge/move during DWT (which still gives you 2 Festers), an awkward phase change leaves you activating DWT before the boss even appears, or if you really want to save some stacks for Bane like in A4S.

[ShinryuReishiki]

they are receiving Spell Speed benefit maybe it's not damage at all, but an actual recast reduction on their abilities.

As stated earlier, Spell Speed does affect the cast/recast of the pets, it's just not displayed in the tooltip. It's a bit harder to perceive on their primary attacks due to the 3s recast, but it's very apparent on the recast of things such as Aerial Slash or Crimson Cyclone.

[Sidra]

Damn. I consider myself a good, although not spectacular SMN, and am generally pulling solid numbers (1081 in a 3 jump A1S, ~ 1400 Faust i192) - but apparently I have been doing it wrong. I use the 2P1F opener, but then just fester the rest of the way on CD. When DWT pops I generally just use it along with 3D and R3 spam until Deathflare.

I will have to dummy practice this for a bit - right now in my head the timing seems a bit odd, as it feel like I'd be holding off on using DWT for considerable time. Considering you have an opener named after you, and dps performance higher than mine, this seems like a time I might be better off shutting my mouth and listening. Thanks for the advice, and my apologies to whoever I was replying to that I was leading astray.

[Charybdis]

As stated earlier, Spell Speed does affect the cast/recast of the pets, it's just not displayed in the tooltip. It's a bit harder to perceive on their primary attacks due to the 3s recast, but it's very apparent on the recast of things such as Aerial Slash or Crimson Cyclone.

Which makes sense and I was sure I had read that, but in order to get a proper model going for Dervy and to understand the numerical weights and benefit, I'm trying to get some working numbers calculated for him is all. Trying to determine if Spell Speed also affects their damage or if it is SOLELY the recast timer, if it is just recast how can we measure/build an accurate model for it? Is it at the same reduction rate for us as players? I believe others were under the impression it was affecting damage as well (which is what I've been testing).

[Minorinz]

I honestly don't get the current obsession with spellspeed? Wasn't it the same on 2.0 and right now on 3.0 they just increased their base damage multiplier even then it's still lower than det. no matter how many times I think about it, spellspeed is not that relevant and maybe so if i'm going to stand still and hit a dummy with 0 movement to optimize every second which isn't the case on savage.

[Charybdis]

If you've been following the discussions between Dervy, Sleigh, Judge, myself and others through the data collection you'd know that:

-It's not an obsession with Spell Speed. It's an avid interest in nailing down the stat weights for our job which many people are incredibly interested in. It's not as easy as saying, X>Y>Z. Not for us anyway. Every job will have some sort of stat weights. We are on the front lines finding those exact numbers.

-Spell Speed is proving difficult to find and early models from Dervy show that Spell Speed is in fact better than BOTH CRT and DET. He mentions this a few pages back. If this is the case it puts SMN in an interesting place with their relationship between Spell Speed and their damage.

-Being so dismissive about the stats, work, and interest of others makes a lot of the research that Dervy and myself do disheartening to hear. We are putting in a lot of time for every SMN that's interested in optimizing their stats for gear and further progression.

[Minorinz]

There is no way SS will be better than Crit also the model won't reflecting on actual practical instance/fights. Smns do not chain casts like blms and pets are a 1/3 or so of smn's overall damage. I'm not trying to discourage the discussion. I'm just being realistic. Yes, as a smn i'm interested to know the formula since I was the one who dragged dervy here and asked him on his own thread back then, and we got crit/det values but ss is just not really convincing atm, i'm sorry.

[T0rin]

There is no way SS will be better than Crit also the model won't reflecting on actual practical instance/fights. Smns do not chain casts like blms and pets are a 1/3 or so of smn's overall damage. I'm not trying to discourage the discussion. I'm just being realistic. Yes, as a smn i'm interested to know the formula since I was the one who dragged dervy here and asked him on his own thread back then, and we got crit/det values but ss is just not really convincing atm, i'm sorry.

How can you say there is no way SS will be better than Crit? What, you think it is literally impossible that SE would give it a higher weight? Doesn't that seem a bit arrogant?

SS effectively has two weights... one in how it affects DoT/Pet damage, and two in how it affects GCDs. The former can be modeled, and if early numbers are pointing at SS being weighted more heavily, without even getting into the benefits to GCD, how can you just outright dismiss it? Do you know something nobody else knows? I doubt it.

SMNs do chain cast like BLMs. We don't get a vast majority of our damage from chain casting (which is usually just ruin), but to say we don't chain cast means what, we just stand around doing nothing? Of course we're chain casting. Applying dots with a GCD benefit can and will mean occasional extra ticks that you wouldn't get without it. Spamming ruin (even more important now with DWT) always benefits from GCD improvements. Handling mechanics without interrupting casts, being able to slide cast sooner, minimizing lost GCD time while utilizing 2 oGCDs after instant casts, etc.. all benefit from SS.

But to outright say that SS can't be better than Crit with no evidence whatsoever? Really?

Personally, I _really_ appreciate the work that Chary and Dervy are doing to nail this stuff down. Right now, we just kind of use the first 210 piece we can get our hands on, but I would definitely like to know definitively that I am gearing correctly in the long run. I look forward to the realistic sims on actual fights (and dummy parses) to see how it all pans out.

[Bhuni]

You always want to do two Festers in a DWT, excluding your opener if you use sleighs. Then you use your third fester after Aether CD is less than 30 secs. That way you get 2 Festers in every DWT.

Dreadwyrm Trance Duration: 15 seconds
Fester Recast: 10 seconds

Not sure how you're doing that lol.