Connecting the DoTs: A Summoner Guide

[Havenchild]

That is so dumb lol.

So its still a static 3 sec timer whose offset is predetermined, and not dependent on when you cast it?

All circle AoEs follow the rule that they go off a pulse of the caster. The 3 second timer follows after the *tick* of the users pulse. This is basically how sacred soil works, if you miss the actual pulse tick, you won't get the sacred soil buff until the next tick is supposed to occur post 3 seconds. The pulse in question is determined from when you load into an instance or area.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...ming_research/ -> Info here.

So ultimately it, if you were to reapply shadowflare on the tick exactly, the formal SF will tick and then the one that comes to replace it will tick as well in theory.

Sleigh was saying he tried that but it didn't actually do it, while I've seen other people claim that it's true and can be done.

EDIT: I'm starting to think this is under a perfect world scenario instead of reliably happening in game. Editted the OP regardless with a link and a disclaimer for that.

[Minorinz]

Gear specs:

Time: 2:53

Int: 668
Det: 419
Crit: 495
SS: 371
----------
Myself: 385
Ifrit: 171

Time: 2:55

Int: 670
Det: 394
Crit: 533
SS: 371
----------
Myself: 400
Ifrit: 177

Time: 2:57

Int: 682
Det: 305
Crit: 602
SS: 422
----------
Myself: 387
Ifrit: 168

Det vs Crit with relative Int build.
Parsed multiple times to get an average for each. I haven't tempered with the data.
Rotation was the exact same as well. I closed the parses couple of days ago and tried to retrieve but they seemed to be corrupted. They showed that ifrit was at 100 dps and I was 20 dps less than the original result at 3 mins which was odd (if you know a way to retrieve original parses for pets please advice)...
Also, please note that those results are -5/-10 from the original result due to me being a slow poke at ending the encounter.

[Dervy]

The best thing to do, really, is gather A LOT of Data to determine DET vs INT on Pet Damage. Ifrit has an ability which is on a 6s C/D, 120 Potency or something right? If so, set up a controlled environment where your INT + WD is static and vary the value of Determination, then plot it on a graph, then do the same of Intelligence. At the same time, also manually cast Ruin and record the data.

Why?


You want to check whether or not Determination scales differently for Pets than it does to our actual player characters. You'd either want to multiply the recorded min/max values of your Ruin II's by 1.5, or divide Ifrits damage by 1.5 (so they're the same potency), before plotting on a Graph however. If the slope of both graphs are different, or if the Ifrit Graphs Slope is higher, then it means Pets would scale more with Determination.

You'd also want to do the same check with Intelligence. So have a static Determination + WD, but varying INT, to check if Ifrit scales Intelligence differently.

Ultimately, you want to see if there's a difference between "INT and DET" and this will affect how you should build your gear sets, as well as the summoner weights.

If I'm wrong, someone correct me and I'll delete this post, lol. (Never touched smn's, just read)

[ShinryuReishiki]

One difficulty in comparing is that Ifrit seems to use the Physical Damage stat of the weapon rather than Magic Damage, as it does about 70% the damage a spell would at the same potency. Since I'm not really sure how that should be handled, I'm just looking at how the damage changed as a percentage. I just picked 4 sets, tested 10 minutes each. Not enough to show any detailed relationships, but at least a general picture.

Int seems to have the same impact across the board. The damage differences vary within a small range, but that could easily be due to how the game rounds values; would need a lot more data to really say anything there.

As for Det, it seems to impact Burning Strike to the same degree as spells, but Ifrit's Auto-Attack sees twice the impact; Ifrit's Auto-Attack is half the potency of its Burning Strike, but the resulting damage gained from Det is seemingly equal. I expected Bio to maybe show a larger change than Ruin as well, but the impact seems about equal there.


Set A (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QMXR)
82 MD 52 PD 658 Int 388 Det
Ruin (80): 305-338
Bio (40): 152-169
Burning Strike (120): 237-261
Ifrit Auto (60): 129-142


Set B (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QMXS)
82 MD 52 PD 658 Int 202 Det
Ruin (80): 277-306
Bio (40): 137-150
Burning Strike (120): 215-238
Ifrit Auto (60): 108-119


Set C (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QMXQ)
82 MD 52 PD 616 Int 388 Det
Ruin (80): 286-317
Bio (40): 142-157
Burning Strike (120): 221-244
Ifrit Auto (60): 120-133


Set D (http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QMXO)
82 MD 52 PD 616 Int 202 Det
Ruin (80): 261-288
Bio (40): 131-143
Burning Strike (120): 201-222
Ifrit Auto (60): 100-111



Set A vs Set B (Int equal @ 658, Det -186)
Ruin: 321.5 - 291.5 = 30
Bio: 160.5 - 143.5 = 17
Burning Strike: 249 - 226.5 = 22.5
Ifrit Auto: 135.5 - 113.5 = 22

Ruin: 321.5 / 291.5 = 1.1029
Bio: 160.5 / 143.5 = 1.1184
Burning Strike: 249 / 226.5 = 1.0993
Ifrit Auto: 135.5 / 113.5 = 1.1938



Set A vs Set C (Det equal @ 388, Int -42)
Ruin: 321.5 - 301.5 = 20
Bio: 160.5 - 149.5 = 11
Burning Strike: 249 - 232.5 = 16.5
Ifrit Auto: 135.5 - 126.5 = 9

Ruin: 321.5 / 301.5 = 1.06633
Bio: 160.5 / 149.5 = 1.0736
Burning Strike: 249 / 232.5 = 1.0709
Ifrit Auto: 135.5 / 126.5 = 1.0711



Set B vs Set D (Det equal @ 202, Int -42)
Ruin: 291.5 - 274.5 = 17
Bio: 143.5 - 137 = 6.5
Burning Strike: 226.5 - 211.5 = 15
Ifrit Auto: 113.5 - 105.5 = 8

Ruin: 291.5 / 274.5 = 1.0619
Bio: 143.5 / 137 = 1.0474
Burning Strike: 226.5 / 211.5 = 1.0709
Ifrit Auto: 113.5 / 105.5 = 1.0758



Set C vs Set D (Int equal @ 616, Det -186)
Ruin: 301.5 - 274.5 = 27
Bio: 149.5 - 137 = 12.5
Burning Strike: 232.5 - 211.5 = 21
Ifrit Auto: 126.5 - 105.5 = 21

Ruin: 301.5 / 274.5 = 1.0984
Bio: 149.5 / 137 = 1.0912
Burning Strike: 232.5 / 211.5 = 1.0993
Ifrit Auto: 126.5 / 105.5 = 1.1991

[Dervy]

Auto-Attacks value Determination twice as much as they do for standard Ability Skills, keep that in-mind, so it could also apply for Egis.

Maybe Egis are quite literally like "external players" and are mechanically the same as we are? (In terms of stat-scaling at least)

[Sleigh]

testing

Could you check Ironworks i130 chest vs Demon Robe i120 chest? I never did get the Demon Robe, mostly because I play BLM far far more than SMN, but I'm curious to see how much that DET is worth vs the 5 INT loss in terms of raw damage (ignoring the other benefits of the i130 chest, which are definitely there).

[Minorinz]

Det definitely scales with Int but Crit is kinda a chance stat other than being a damage amplifying stat. Need to do more tests on a Crit vs Det build with respect to Ifrit's damage, which is what my post was referring to.

[Judge_Xero]

One difficulty in comparing is that Ifrit seems to use the Physical Damage stat of the weapon rather than Magic Damage, as it does about 70% the damage a spell would at the same potency. Since I'm not really sure how that should be handled....

Yeah, I'm not really sure how Magic VS Physical Damage works. I just thought that mobs had lower MDEF than DEF so magic hit harder. Then we get tossed something like Raiton which is magic and hits like a physical attack.... So maybe it is just based on MD vs PD and Maim and Mend. (Are pets effected by Maim + Mend?)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think when I was doing my pet weights I did it wrong. I was comparing the stats to raise SMN DPS 1% and PET DPS 1% and not just the damage themselves. I don't know if that's a good way to do it, but I just figured since Ifrit was on a static 3s GCD VS SMN on a dynamic GCD it might be better.

[ShinryuReishiki]

Auto-Attacks value Determination twice as much as they do for standard Ability Skills, keep that in-mind, so it could also apply for Egis.

Maybe Egis are quite literally like "external players" and are mechanically the same as we are? (In terms of stat-scaling at least)

Crit rate seems to translate directly, at least.

Hmm, that makes me curious about the impact on book smacks as well. That's the one scenario we have where dropping Int for Det is a straight gain rather than a balancing act, so maybe the impact is more significant than one would expect given the relatively low damage of book smacks.

Could you check Ironworks i130 chest vs Demon Robe i120 chest? I never did get the Demon Robe, mostly because I play BLM far far more than SMN, but I'm curious to see how much that DET is worth vs the 5 INT loss in terms of raw damage (ignoring the other benefits of the i130 chest, which are definitely there).

Edit: posted here http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2956452

Need to do more tests on a Crit vs Det build with respect to Ifrit's damage, which is what my post was referring to.

The problem is it would take a loooooot of testing. 3 minute parses are far too little data to come to any conclusion. I've had a set with 600 Crit produce lower crit rates in a T10 than a set with 520; RNG is going to be RNG, no matter how we stack the odds. We would need to test each set for hours, and in comparing full rotations, human error also becomes a significant factor.

A more reasonable option, I think, would be to find the raw damage ranges a set produces, then adjust the damage based on a perfect RNG crit rate. Especially in a case like Ifrit, since it attacks at a completely fixed rate (Unless we put on Skill Speed...).

For example, comparing Burning Strikes from my set A and B from above with the Crit rate in the sets.

Set A (477 Crit = 14.82%)
249 * 0.8518 + 249 * 1.5 * 0.1482 = 267.4509

Set B (602 Crit = 23.85%)
226.5 * 0.7615 + 226.5 * 1.5 * 0.2385 = 253.5101

[Dervy]

Hmm, that makes me curious about the impact on book smacks as well. That's the one scenario we have where dropping Int for Det is a straight gain rather than a balancing act, so maybe the impact is more significant than one would expect given the relatively low damage of book smacks.

If you play a book-smacking Summoner, Determination will definitely have a larger impact on damage.

The best way, really, would be to found out how Egi's exactly work, then create a model or a simulator which averages out RNG like Critical Hit Rating.