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  1. #1261
    Player
    Sidra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    259
    Character
    Sidra Swiftwind
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by UBERHAXED View Post
    Radiant shield affects everyone in the party including other pets (lol selene and eos). I also believe that (based on logs) Ifrit does a counter attack whenever other targets get hit. It doesn't seem right that Ifrit is using radiant shield only when he is hit when in some fights he'll take literally no damage and still counter attack (take A3 for example).
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/7zZ4TR...-done&source=2

    It goes without saying that no pet have an attack called "attack" (pet's don't auto attack, they use their base attack, in this case burning strike every 3 seconds). In the log I linked, Ifrit also used "attack" more times than burning strike, which leads to believe that he used attack for every physical hit received under the duration of radiant shield. Further digging through that log reveals that Ifrit took no damage during the encounter outside of splash and (aside from splash not being physical anyway) radiant shield was not active during the damage intake. Looking at the log though it seems that he will continue to use attack well past the duration of radiant shield.

    Lots of controversial opinions here (particularly I'm challenging the opening post's opinion of Ifrit in post 58 content) so feel free to discuss any obvious oversights in the thought process, errors in the provided data, or contradictions in the logic.
    You whole argument is based on of something factually incorrect, it's not opinion based. Ifrit DOES auto attack (honestly not sure how you can play SMN and not know that - he literally hits after every Burning Strike). Ifrit DOES NOT get attacks off because of the Radiant Shield buff when other party members get hit. And Radiant Shield does exactly what it says. The person or people getting hit while the Radiant Shield buffs are up are the ones who get off the attacks. In general, it helps the main tank as they are the one getting hit, but 50 potency attacks from a tank are not very strong. You can niche use it, like during a cleave. Works in A3 and I remember using it for fun in Ravana when we were solo tanking thus turning cleaves into the party. It gives everyone a free 50 potency whack like that. Buy keep in mind those are still pretty weak - the SMN hit is like half that of a normal book smack (at i208 and a Thordan weapon I hit for like 45 dmg with it). Also it does not show up in the log as an attack, it simply says "The X takes Y damage." ACT actually attributes it to the skill “Radiant Shield.” I am unsure how fflogs handles it, although from the looks of it, it adds a Fluid Strike to the user which is really odd. Regardless – most of you argument comes from the fact that it gives Ifrit far more attacks which is simply wrong.

    For all the effort you put in to research fflogs, I am surprised you did such a bad job on the in game stuff.
    (2)
    Last edited by Sidra; 12-21-2015 at 05:40 AM.

  2. #1262
    Player
    UBERHAXED's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    700
    Character
    Seraph Khalid
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by OneWingedSora View Post
    Ifrit auto attacks, and that is what it refers to in the log by "Attack".
    If Ifrit always auto attacks, then there's something seriously wrong with using Garuda considering the already large difference of potency attacks between the two (120 potency burning strike per 3 seconds + the alleged "auto" 50 potency, which appears to be more frequent compared to 100 potency wind blade). If Ifrit auto attacks, then the attack will be close to burning strike in potency (80% to be exact), but the move is clearly less than 50% (which matches exactly with radiant shield). Also the alleged auto should then appear when radiant shield is not in effect. And furthermore should be included on the OP to not misinform users the damage of the pet (which may have been the purpose of such an omission). You pet will autonomously use their 3 second cooldown move, which serves as an "auto attack". I've not seen any further evidence that this is the not the case, also considering that if Ifrit does an auto attack at a fixed interval and burning strike at a fixed interval, than in every fight the ratio of "auto attack" and burning strike should be fix (or, giving you the benefit here, consistent). This is shown not be the case from the following logs:
    (Using a person other than myself as a control variable, vs Faust so there should be no external movement, the rest of the cases will be controlled by User (myself))
    Control Vs. Faust
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/vrGVfq...done&source=10
    Ratio: 37 attack to 36 burning strike; 102.7%
    Case 1 Vs. Thordan
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/L1NH6A...rce=1&fight=11
    Ratio: 152 attack to 132 burning strike; 115.1%
    Case 2 Vs. Thordan
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/L1NH6A...rce=1&fight=12
    Ratio: 136 attack to 149 burning strike; 109.5%
    Case 3 Vs. Faust
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/b3pxn4...e=231&fight=14
    Ratio: 40 attack to 35 burning strike; 114.2%
    Case 4 Vs. A2S
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/b3pxn4...e=231&fight=19
    Ratio: 125 attack to 116 burning strike; 107.7%
    Case 5 Vs. Oppressor
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/b3pxn4...one&source=231
    Ratio: 113 attack to 102 burning strike; 107.8%
    Case 6 Vs. A2S
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/HnLKC7...-done&source=1
    Ratio: 157 attack to 136 burning strike; 115.4%
    Case 7 Vs. Faust
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/fbynRF...-done&source=2
    Ratio: 41 attack to 37 burning strike; 110.8%
    Case 8 Vs. Oppressor
    http://www.fflogs.com/reports/fbynRF...-done&source=2
    Ratio: 104 attack to 92 burning strike; 113.0%

    There's a lot of evidence to the contrary so you need at least some form of evidence barring word of mouth to support your claim.
    (0)

  3. #1263
    Player
    ShinryuReishiki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    184
    Character
    Shinryu Reishiki
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Pictomancer Lv 100
    You can't compare Ifrit's potency to Garuda's potency. Garuda's damage is calculated using the Magic Damage stat of you weapon, while Ifrit using the Physical Damage stat which is not shown in the tooltip (~70% of MD generally).

    Ifrit's auto attack count and Burning Strike count will not be in sync if other attacks are used; Crimson Cyclone and such will delay the next Burning Strike slightly, but will have no impact on the auto attacks.
    (0)
    Last edited by ShinryuReishiki; 12-21-2015 at 06:21 AM.

  4. #1264
    Player
    Sidra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    259
    Character
    Sidra Swiftwind
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 60
    Dude - just pull out Ifrit on anything and watch it's animations and the chat log. It freaking Burning Strikes and Auto attacks. This is borderline ridiculous you are making this argument. Also - SMN have known forever that the potency of Wind Blade and Burning Strike are not apples to apples comparison. Despite Wind Blade's weaker potency it hits much harder. Commonly believed to use the weapon's Magic Damage dmg as opposed to Burning Strike's weapon Auto Attackck dmg as different basis for the attacks.

    I love fflogs, its an amazing tool for research and as a source of positive motivation to get better as it's cool to see yourself rise in rankings. But you need to get out of it and play the game, you're making yourself look like a pretty know nothing Summoner.
    (4)
    Last edited by Sidra; 12-21-2015 at 06:06 AM.

  5. #1265
    Player
    Havenchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    990
    Character
    Avalen Koma
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by UBERHAXED View Post
    snip
    I'm not gonna try to be mean in any sense, however you are misinformed on some things and you are welcome to test anything claimed in this guide in a controlled environment in game.

    Just to be sure you understand:

    1) Ifrit DOES have an Auto Attack that is separate from Burning Strike (the skill it uses every 3 seconds; Default Attack Skill).


    2) The only time Ifrit "skips" (delays) a default attack (Burning Strike) , is if several of his skills are used back to back/ come up at the same time (If on Sic).
    So instead of something like

    Burning Strike + Auto -> Crimson Cyclone -> Burning Strike+ Auto -> Radiant Shield -> Burning Strike + Auto -> Flaming Crush,

    it will become:

    Burning Strike + Auto -> Crimson Cyclone ->Auto -> Radiant Shield -> Auto> Flaming Crush -> Burning Strike + Auto


    3) Garuda and Ifrit damage is calculated differently. Thus you cannot directly compare their potencies.

    4) Radiant Shield only procs (and can proc continuously) when a user who has the buff takes Physical damage. The damage it deals is based of the physical damage a user can do. This is why casters (Both Healer and DPS) will do much less damage than a Tank or other DPS.

    5) Is Radiant Shield better than Contagion in dungeons? If the mobs die very fast, then it is better. Otherwise if they survive longer than Radiant Shield (20s) than Contagion was very likely better in almost every scenario. In post 58, Dreadwyrm Trance is too much of a buff to SMN damage universally for Ifrit to keep up from then onwards. More to the point that at 60, no mobs die that fast usually which further makes Radiant Shield and Ifrit mundane. Think about Aetherflow usage as well.

    With Ifrit, you will have to Dot ups -> Bane -> Painflare -> Dot -> re-Bane again likely before mobs die.

    With Garuda, you Will DoT up a mob -> Contagion + Painflare -> Bane ->-----> Painflare

    Contagion saves you both, GCDs going up towards redotting enemies that now can be used towards AoE Blizzard II use, and maximizing damage from Aetherflow usage.
    (0)
    Last edited by Havenchild; 12-23-2015 at 01:24 AM.

  6. #1266
    Player
    audi5000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    30
    Character
    Bad Nyanners
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 60
    what openers have people been using recently? im still using sleighs opener since its what im used to but i noticed that a lot of top smns have opted to use a r3(swift) r3 (raging tri) r2 (fester pain) r2 (ed aether) etc etc -> manual dot reapplication inside dw trance. not sure how i feel avout hardcasted dots inside dw trance, but it is becoming a pretty common opener that has good results. thoughts on this opener vs 2f1p/2p1f?
    (0)

  7. #1267
    Player
    ShinryuReishiki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    184
    Character
    Shinryu Reishiki
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Pictomancer Lv 100
    Lately I've been using that style of opener, seems to work fairly well; all of my personal bests have been after I switched openers, but that doesn't mean much honestly. I feel like the opener ends up being fairly insignificant as long as you're not doing something weird like not putting up DoTs at all.

    Pre-cast SF, Swift R3 (RS + 3D), R2 (F + P), R2 (ED + DWT), R2 (AF + Pot), R2 (Rouse + Spur), R2 (Enkindle + F), B2, M, B (DF), R2 (F), SF (Contagion), ...

    I put it all on a spreadsheet somewhere to compare to other openers, I think it was like ~130 potency higher than Sleigh's around the 30s mark if you were able to pre-cast SF? Could be wrong, was just something I did to pass the time at work. I'm not sure how standard our NIN's Trick Attack timing is, but with this opener, I'm able to get all DoTs, Enkindle, and DF off during Trick Attack. Being "ahead" on AF CD has been nice in some situations as well.
    (0)
    Last edited by ShinryuReishiki; 01-05-2016 at 05:12 AM.

  8. #1268
    Player
    Sleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,563
    Character
    Philia Felice
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by ShinryuReishiki View Post
    Lately I've been using that style of opener, seems to work fairly well; all of my personal bests have been after I switched openers, but that doesn't mean much honestly. I feel like the opener ends up being fairly insignificant as long as you're not doing something weird like not putting up DoTs at all.

    Pre-cast SF, Swift R3 (RS + 3D), R2 (F + P), R2 (ED + DWT), R2 (AF + Pot), R2 (Rouse + Spur), R2 (Enkindle + F), B2, M, B (DF), R2 (F), SF (Contagion), ...

    I put it all on a spreadsheet somewhere to compare to other openers, I think it was like ~130 potency higher than Sleigh's around the 30s mark if you were able to pre-cast SF? Could be wrong, was just something I did to pass the time at work. I'm not sure how standard our NIN's Trick Attack timing is, but with this opener, I'm able to get all DoTs, Enkindle, and DF off during Trick Attack. Being "ahead" on AF CD has been nice in some situations as well.
    I'm not really a math guy and I'm not trying to defend the opener everyone likes to quote but if it's 130 potency higher than the opener in question, doesn't that make it less total potency since the opener everyone quotes has 2 remaining stacks (IE a 300 potency Fester ripe and ready) vs 1 stack remaining for yours? I know the opener I use literally can't do its fourth Fester until 35s in.

    As you said though, SMN opener doesn't mean much really. One Deathflare or Fester crit and you're doing more than other openers that pull, it's barely worth getting into any argument over. Just as long as you work with your group's Litany and TA, at the least ensuring you hit Enkindle + 3D during TA (3D's worth more than Deathflare + Fester put together when Contagioned, after all).
    (0)

  9. #1269
    Player
    alphamax112's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    140
    Character
    Kim Taeyeon
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 60
    Question : If we put 3D under RS+Pot+TA+BL but we Contagion when all of those buff is over. Which DoTs does the ACT count after Contagion? Buffed ones or unbuffed ones?
    I heard Bard's DoTs extension use unbuffed ones when they're extended outside of buffs window.
    (0)

  10. #1270
    Player
    Sleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,563
    Character
    Philia Felice
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Contagion doesn't snapshot, it just extends whatever was on there. Contagion is independent of what DoTs you currently have up. It counts this way on ACT.

    Iron Jaws from BRD doesn't extend VB/WB, it restarts them, so it's purely based on which buffs you have and which debuffs are up on the enemy as you use Iron Jaws. ACT also takes this into account properly.
    (0)
    Last edited by Sleigh; 01-05-2016 at 03:01 PM.

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