dungeon helpers

[KisaiTenshi]

I still don't really understand this... if people played the game the way it was designed, tanks would only pull one mob group at a time, thus only taking damage from maybe three-four enemies, DPS would only AOE a bit of the time, and healers would be....bored if just healing. I mean, besides a few enemies most trash pulls don't hit that hard.

Remember SE doesn't really like people to pull all the trash up to a boss and AOE them down.

When I say this, people are taking it way too literately. To refresh:

a) There are three "roles", Tank, Healer and DPS. If you step outside that role, you are taking ownership of the party failure. This is not suggesting that Healers should not DPS and DPS should not heal themselves, but rather if you step outside the role, you are still responsible for your role. With healers this is far more critical.

b) A healer that is DPS'ing when there are no healable targets is adding to the total DPS. A healer that is DPS'ing while other players (DPS/Tank) are healing themselves are subtracting from the total DPS. Hence again, you do NOT DPS while there are healable targets. If players were playing the dungeon instances with the minimum gear requirements instead of maximum, they would have no opportunity to DPS period, and instead need to conserve MP.

c) There is a certain threshold at which a healable target "needs" to be healed, and the goal posts move the farther away from the minimum gear requirement is. If the entire party is minimum gear, then overpulling would not even be an option, as MP would be exhausted between pulls. People keep forgetting this because parties are often comprised of over-geared tanks and over-geared healers with minimum geared DPS in the low-level dungeons. When it's reversed (minimum geared tank) the healer has spend a lot more time healing the tank, and thus has less opportunity to DPS. A minimum geared tank may have as much as a 50% difference in HP compared to a maximum one. That changes the healing requirements significantly when the amount of damage they take goes from 5-10% per hit to 40% per hit.

d) The dungeons are not designed to be speedpulled. You do so at your own risk. Healing requirements scale linearly, where as damage in AOE scales exponentially. So if each mob hits the tank for 3% damage (3 mobs), a regular pull might incur 10% damage every 5 seconds, but a speed pull of 10 monsters takes that to 30%, and some insane "to the boss room door" pulls can easily flatten an overgeared tank with bad timing of all the mobs striking at the same time. But two DPS timing their AOE's at the same time are doing damage to all 10 monsters at the same time. The more you pull, the more vital it is to avoid AOE's yourself, especially anything that stun/paralyzes (eg Morbol's.)

e) Please play with randoms in the Duty Finder if you think healing is too easy. I assure you that the only reason healers might be bored is when the party is actually good enough to not require as much healing as a band of newbies. Take that opportunity to DPS rather than stand still. You're never required to, and anyone who throws a fit about you DPS'ing or not DPS'ing is a poor player to begin with.


A lot of misconceptions about FFXIV come from players who apparently played WoW or GW or some other MMO where basically everyone is a DPS and few people pick healer roles because the healer role is too squishy, and other healing mechanics (eg pots) are cheaper and lack penalties. The Tank who chainpulls is an example of bringing bad habits from one MMORPG to FFXIV.

If you are going to play a game, you first play it like the developers intended it, and then when you see opportunity for emergent gameplay, that doesn't break the intent of the game mechanics, you take advantage of that. Trying to go straight to minmaxing every GCD just because it's there, is not not smart or efficient gameplay, and certainly isn't fun to play with party members who expect a pro every time.

[Alisi]

A lot of misconceptions about FFXIV come from players who apparently played WoW or GW or some other MMO where basically everyone is a DPS and few people pick healer roles because the healer role is too squishy, and other healing mechanics (eg pots) are cheaper and lack penalties. The Tank who chainpulls is an example of bringing bad habits from one MMORPG to FFXIV.

Not true in the case of WoW. Squishiness is completely dependent on the healing class you play and there are tons of healers (there's six different healing specs.) FFXIV is actually way, way, way more lax on these things. WoW has so many more restrictions and penalties that it isn't funny. You have no idea how good you have it herein FFXIV.

[Cynfael]

When I say this, people are taking it way too literately. To refresh:

a) There are three "roles", Tank, Healer and DPS. If you step outside that role, you are taking ownership of the party failure. This is not suggesting that Healers should not DPS and DPS should not heal themselves, but rather if you step outside the role, you are still responsible for your role.With healers this is far more critical.

False. Using your full kit does not constitute "stepping outside your role." If you don't want to be taken so literally, then consider not making everything you say sound so black-and-white. The roles are there to ensure that parties have the bases covered, so to speak; they aren't intended to be straitjackets.

b) A healer that is DPS'ing when there are no healable targets is adding to the total DPS. A healer that is DPS'ing while other players (DPS/Tank) are healing themselves are subtracting from the total DPS. Hence again, you do NOT DPS while there are healable targets. If players were playing the dungeon instances with the minimum gear requirements instead of maximum, they would have no opportunity to DPS period, and instead need to conserve MP.

What constitutes a "healable target"? The majority of DPS who heal are doing it because they don't know any better or are just plain bad. When I play BLM I have rarely used my heals while the healer is alive, and generally only after I've observed that they are A) extremely bad and can't be trusted or B) dead. If it's actually the healer who is so bad that they are scaring the DPS into attempting to heal, that's purely about player incompetence and beyond the reasonable expectation of intelligent healer DPS.

Also, the last bit about minimum gear requirements and not being able to DPS/needing to conserve MP is not true in all cases. Overgearing certainly gives more breathing room for a few important reasons, but healing requirements vary depending on the situation, even at lower gear levels, and MP is not this precious, rare resource that needs to be hoarded at all costs; running dry should be a rare thing except if multiple rezzes are needed, especially in dungeons since you regenerate tons of MP between pulls even if making larger pulls.

c) There is a certain threshold at which a healable target "needs" to be healed, and the goal posts move the farther away from the minimum gear requirement is. If the entire party is minimum gear, then overpulling would not even be an option, as MP would be exhausted between pulls. People keep forgetting this because parties are often comprised of over-geared tanks and over-geared healers with minimum geared DPS in the low-level dungeons. When it's reversed (minimum geared tank) the healer has spend a lot more time healing the tank, and thus has less opportunity to DPS. A minimum geared tank may have as much as a 50% difference in HP compared to a maximum one. That changes the healing requirements significantly when the amount of damage they take goes from 5-10% per hit to 40% per hit.

Not sure when this became a speedrun discussion, but I don't see anything to disagree with here. It goes without saying that healers will spend more time healing when incoming damage significantly exceeds any mitigation or passive healing in place.

d) The dungeons are not designed to be speedpulled.

The devs might not want players to be able to pull an entire dungeon in one fell swoop, but if they truly wanted to thwart larger pulls, they would simply place more doors and more pits. Clearly the design allows for players to bite off a bit more if they can handle it.

e) Please play with randoms in the Duty Finder if you think healing is too easy. I assure you that the only reason healers might be bored is when the party is actually good enough to not require as much healing as a band of newbies. Take that opportunity to DPS rather than stand still. You're never required to, and anyone who throws a fit about you DPS'ing or not DPS'ing is a poor player to begin with.

Here's the thing: most of us who are giving people advice on how to play healer properly use the DF and play with actual random people on a regular basis. This information is not coming to you from the FFXIV Military Healer Academy; these are skills that we use every day in random settings.

A lot of misconceptions about FFXIV come from players who apparently played WoW or GW or some other MMO where basically everyone is a DPS and few people pick healer roles because the healer role is too squishy, and other healing mechanics (eg pots) are cheaper and lack penalties. The Tank who chainpulls is an example of bringing bad habits from one MMORPG to FFXIV.

If you are going to play a game, you first play it like the developers intended it, and then when you see opportunity for emergent gameplay, that doesn't break the intent of the game mechanics, you take advantage of that. Trying to go straight to minmaxing every GCD just because it's there, is not not smart or efficient gameplay, and certainly isn't fun to play with party members who expect a pro every time.

I'm pretty sure that the misconceptions about the healer role in this game are largely on your end. If players followed your admittedly literal-sounding advice, they would utilize only half of their toolkit for the most part and not become skilled with stance dancing at all. It's not just "pro" parties that allow a healer to assist; healing requirements are relatively minimal for most content, and even in the most healing-intensive content like T13 you can utilize your mitigation and healing tools to carve out windows for safe DPS contribution. Applying that to something like a 4-man dungeon isn't difficult.

Besides, if contributing DPS as a healer is a "pro" skill, it needs to be cultivated with practice. I certainly didn't start out realizing that I could provide a lot of DPS to my parties when I was a new healer; I was terrified even to click Cleric Stance on! With practice and by knowing my fights I became able to choose my moments with confidence and significantly boost party DPS while ensuring that I met healing requirements. That's all there is to it.

[VanilleFang]

Here's the thing: most of us who are giving people advice on how to play healer properly use the DF and play with actual random people on a regular basis. This information is not coming to you from the FFXIV Military Healer Academy; these are skills that we use every day in random settings.

This 100%. I'm not a member of a FC or a LS and I only play with PUGs. I have no trouble DPSing and healing in a group of randoms since I have a lot of practice with it and understand when DPSing is possible. I have made mistakes but I learn from them. My mistakes don't discourage me from DPSing.

[KisaiTenshi]

Besides, if contributing DPS as a healer is a "pro" skill, it needs to be cultivated with practice. I certainly didn't start out realizing that I could provide a lot of DPS to my parties when I was a new healer; I was terrified even to click Cleric Stance on! With practice and by knowing my fights I became able to choose my moments with confidence and significantly boost party DPS while ensuring that I met healing requirements. That's all there is to it.

Here's the problem. Every time someone comes to THIS forum asking for help, they get lynched if they do not DPS, and that chases people away from the role. The game needs more good healers, not people who pick healer just because it has a faster DF queue, and then abdicate doing any effective healing. That's why there are so many terrible healers, because they are being told they are useless if they aren't DPS'ing at every opportunity when that's not true at all. The game is designed for healers to do nothing but heal if that is what the duty requires, or they are not comfortable with using the rest of the toolbox. The tiny amount of DPS that the healer brings to the game is often not worth sacrificing the DPS players in the party to do so.

The impression given is that the same people offering advice, are playing with their FC's most of the time, and their experiences are completely out of touch with low level DF PUG's go. In "Hard" dungeons you get comments about "baby pulls" if they can't speedpull to the boss room door. The developers don't put a door everywhere because that's not even a remotely fun thing to because it gets old fast (go look at Mabinogi's dungeons, every single room is a locked room) and they shouldn't need to throw road cones at the party to make them kill every trash mob just to get to the next checkpoint.

This 100%. I'm not a member of a FC or a LS and I only play with PUGs. I have no trouble DPSing and healing in a group of randoms since I have a lot of practice with it and understand when DPSing is possible. I have made mistakes but I learn from them. My mistakes don't discourage me from DPSing.

I haven't been in a FC period, and I played V1.0 with this character on this server. What about the players who picked Healer to start, and then get screamed at the first time they enter a dungeon? Let healers learn their role before they start stepping outside it. Nothing is more discouraging in this game then having impatient jerks abandoning the dungeon after mistakes you or some other player make.

What constitutes a "healable target"?

Any target, including NPC's like Brayflox and the Pot in CT, where the damage taken (10-15% on WHM, or 30% on SCH) is most effective to cast the primary healing magic.

An overgeared tank playing their role will take much less damage than a newbie tank. Hence you can't ever make the assumption the tank is going to last the 5 seconds the cleric stance cooldown takes. This is why the SCH in CS matters a whole lot less because the Fairy is not going to let the tank die.

I'm pretty sure that the misconceptions about the healer role in this game are largely on your end.

I'm doing just fine on any content that DF parties actually form. I have yet so see anyone complain about healers lack of meaningful DPS, and the worst that shows up are the occasional Tank gnashing their teeth about not being able to pull every mob to the boss room door and survive.

[VanilleFang]

Here's the problem. Every time someone comes to THIS forum asking for help, they get lynched if they do not DPS, and that chases people away from the role. The game needs more good healers, not people who pick healer just because it has a faster DF queue, and then abdicate doing any effective healing. That's why there are so many terrible healers, because they are being told they are useless if they aren't DPS'ing at every opportunity when that's not true at all. The game is designed for healers to do nothing but heal if that is what the duty requires, or they are not comfortable with using the rest of the toolbox. The tiny amount of DPS that the healer brings to the game is often not worth sacrificing the DPS players in the party to do so.

No body here is saying that you should DPS while ignoring people who need to be healed. If there is an issue with DPS classes healing themselves instead of doing damage than I haven't seen it. I very rarely see a DPS heal themselves outside of low level dungeons, and in this case they have very little experience and are probably not use to someone else healing them or they don't trust their healer for whatever reason. If I see a DPS healing themselves I will ask them to just focus on DPSing and leave the healing to me as it will only slow down the progression through the dungeon.

I haven't been in a FC period, and I played V1.0 with this character on this server. What about the players who picked Healer to start, and then get screamed at the first time they enter a dungeon? Let healers learn their role before they start stepping outside it. Nothing is more discouraging in this game then having impatient jerks abandoning the dungeon after mistakes you or some other player make.

I... have no idea what you are trying to say here. I literally just said I wasn't a part of an FC and I don't party with people I know, ever. I picked up a healer from the start... What are you trying to say exactly?

Fairy is not going to let the tank die.

You're being too literal in the things you say. This is completely untrue. The Fairy is an NPC and as such has no feelings one way or the other about keeping the tank alive. Yes she will cast her Embrace spell when they drop below the thresh hold but she can't do much else. How is she not going to let the tank die? If the tank is taking 1k damage and she is only healing 800 the Tank will eventually die. Your comment is completely false. The Fairy will let the tank die because she will not change her tactic due to more incoming damage or status ailments. And she will also change her target if someone else is hurt more, regardless of role. She will let the tank die.

[Saseal]

Not true in the case of WoW. Squishiness is completely dependent on the healing class you play and there are tons of healers (there's six different healing specs.)

And in RO/Ragnarok Online, Full Support/FS Int/Vit priests with an uninterruptable cast gear were near unkillable xD; (used to have to get an Asura monk to kill with Guillotine Fist, along with a mob of peeps to bring down shielding spells like Kyrie..... which is basically stone skin)
People used to use them to tank in PVP/WoE and some MVPs/bosses/dungeon mobs instead of the actual tank classes...
ME priests, though.... not so much

[Cynfael]

Here's the problem. Every time someone comes to THIS forum asking for help, they get lynched if they do not DPS, and that chases people away from the role. The game needs more good healers, not people who pick healer just because it has a faster DF queue, and then abdicate doing any effective healing. That's why there are so many terrible healers, because they are being told they are useless if they aren't DPS'ing at every opportunity when that's not true at all. The game is designed for healers to do nothing but heal if that is what the duty requires, or they are not comfortable with using the rest of the toolbox. The tiny amount of DPS that the healer brings to the game is often not worth sacrificing the DPS players in the party to do so.

I feel like I just got steamrolled by a massive wave of assumptions and exaggerations. Where are these lynchings you speak of? Even if people really were getting shot down like this, I have a hard time believing that anything that happens on these forums is chasing people away from the role since many players rarely or never even utilize the official forums.

Good players get comfortable with their toolbox; it's not possible to justify not using your entire toolbox when the situation calls for it. That doesn't mean that players should be toxic or abusive, but if we're going to have a discussion about gameplay, let's get straight to the point about it.

Finally, what is this business about sacrificing DPS players in order to promote healer DPS? I have no idea where you come up with this stuff. Also, healer DPS is far from tiny; you really need to partner with some experienced people and learn how these things work; I promise you will have an epiphany and wonder what the hell you have been thinking this entire time.

[Spoekes]

I don't have the endurance to re-WallofText this.

Kisa, you sohuld just overthink your position on this and how you actually give advice here.
Refrain from your "The game is designed for...."-statements, obviously it's your opinion and not a fact, and not many seem to share your opinion.

Finally, what is this business about sacrificing DPS players in order to promote healer DPS? I have no idea where you come up with this stuff. Also, healer DPS is far from tiny; you really need to partner with some experienced people and learn how these things work; I promise you will have an epiphany and wonder what the hell you have been thinking this entire time.

exactly.

[KisaiTenshi]

You're being too literal in the things you say. This is completely untrue. The Fairy is an NPC and as such has no feelings one way or the other about keeping the tank alive. Yes she will cast her Embrace spell when they drop below the thresh hold but she can't do much else. How is she not going to let the tank die? If the tank is taking 1k damage and she is only healing 800 the Tank will eventually die. Your comment is completely false. The Fairy will let the tank die because she will not change her tactic due to more incoming damage or status ailments. And she will also change her target if someone else is hurt more, regardless of role. She will let the tank die.

Back to the context of this thread where DPS players are healing because they think the SCH is incompetent. The fairy is doing most of the healing in a low level dungeon, and you'd have to try pretty hard to get the fairy to not heal the tank, since the tank is the one taking most of the damage. The fairy can't compensate for poison status, or when the entire party has taken equal amounts of damage. If YOU the healer are actually doing your job, the DPS players should have no reason to try and heal.

That's the entire point of the argument in this thread. Is that bad healers DPS when they should be healing, and bad DPS heal when they should be trying to avoid taking damage in the first place. They are stepping outside of their roles at the expense the party.

Here's a reality-check that Cynfael and Spoekes keep not getting. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them wrong. If you can not justify stepping outside your role in the party, then you don't do it. Your angle is more like "if you're not doing everything to maximize dps, then stop playing."