dungeon helpers

[VanilleFang]

Here's the problem. Every time someone comes to THIS forum asking for help, they get lynched if they do not DPS, and that chases people away from the role. The game needs more good healers, not people who pick healer just because it has a faster DF queue, and then abdicate doing any effective healing. That's why there are so many terrible healers, because they are being told they are useless if they aren't DPS'ing at every opportunity when that's not true at all. The game is designed for healers to do nothing but heal if that is what the duty requires, or they are not comfortable with using the rest of the toolbox. The tiny amount of DPS that the healer brings to the game is often not worth sacrificing the DPS players in the party to do so.

No body here is saying that you should DPS while ignoring people who need to be healed. If there is an issue with DPS classes healing themselves instead of doing damage than I haven't seen it. I very rarely see a DPS heal themselves outside of low level dungeons, and in this case they have very little experience and are probably not use to someone else healing them or they don't trust their healer for whatever reason. If I see a DPS healing themselves I will ask them to just focus on DPSing and leave the healing to me as it will only slow down the progression through the dungeon.

I haven't been in a FC period, and I played V1.0 with this character on this server. What about the players who picked Healer to start, and then get screamed at the first time they enter a dungeon? Let healers learn their role before they start stepping outside it. Nothing is more discouraging in this game then having impatient jerks abandoning the dungeon after mistakes you or some other player make.

I... have no idea what you are trying to say here. I literally just said I wasn't a part of an FC and I don't party with people I know, ever. I picked up a healer from the start... What are you trying to say exactly?

Fairy is not going to let the tank die.

You're being too literal in the things you say. This is completely untrue. The Fairy is an NPC and as such has no feelings one way or the other about keeping the tank alive. Yes she will cast her Embrace spell when they drop below the thresh hold but she can't do much else. How is she not going to let the tank die? If the tank is taking 1k damage and she is only healing 800 the Tank will eventually die. Your comment is completely false. The Fairy will let the tank die because she will not change her tactic due to more incoming damage or status ailments. And she will also change her target if someone else is hurt more, regardless of role. She will let the tank die.

[KisaiTenshi]

You're being too literal in the things you say. This is completely untrue. The Fairy is an NPC and as such has no feelings one way or the other about keeping the tank alive. Yes she will cast her Embrace spell when they drop below the thresh hold but she can't do much else. How is she not going to let the tank die? If the tank is taking 1k damage and she is only healing 800 the Tank will eventually die. Your comment is completely false. The Fairy will let the tank die because she will not change her tactic due to more incoming damage or status ailments. And she will also change her target if someone else is hurt more, regardless of role. She will let the tank die.

Back to the context of this thread where DPS players are healing because they think the SCH is incompetent. The fairy is doing most of the healing in a low level dungeon, and you'd have to try pretty hard to get the fairy to not heal the tank, since the tank is the one taking most of the damage. The fairy can't compensate for poison status, or when the entire party has taken equal amounts of damage. If YOU the healer are actually doing your job, the DPS players should have no reason to try and heal.

That's the entire point of the argument in this thread. Is that bad healers DPS when they should be healing, and bad DPS heal when they should be trying to avoid taking damage in the first place. They are stepping outside of their roles at the expense the party.

Here's a reality-check that Cynfael and Spoekes keep not getting. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them wrong. If you can not justify stepping outside your role in the party, then you don't do it. Your angle is more like "if you're not doing everything to maximize dps, then stop playing."

[Ghishlain]

Back to the context of this thread where DPS players are healing because they think the SCH is incompetent. The fairy is doing most of the healing in a low level dungeon, and you'd have to try pretty hard to get the fairy to not heal the tank, since the tank is the one taking most of the damage. The fairy can't compensate for poison status, or when the entire party has taken equal amounts of damage. If YOU the healer are actually doing your job, the DPS players should have no reason to try and heal.

That's the entire point of the argument in this thread. Is that bad healers DPS when they should be healing, and bad DPS heal when they should be trying to avoid taking damage in the first place. They are stepping outside of their roles at the expense the party.

Here's a reality-check that Cynfael and Spoekes keep not getting. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them wrong. If you can not justify stepping outside your role in the party, then you don't do it. Your angle is more like "if you're not doing everything to maximize dps, then stop playing."

I've been trying to avoid jumping onto here for a bit just to see how this pans out, but I think I'm going to bring up two points on the bolded section of your quote.

(1) This quote also applies to yourself, Kisai. You disagree with them but it doesn't make them wrong either.

(2) While I don't disagree with your stance, I do note that you only speak half the truth too.

"Healer's primary intent is to keep your party healthy and fighting." I agree with this.

However, let's approach this a different way.

Healer DPS reduces the amount of HP required to complete a fight. Let's say an encounter requires 200 HPS. If Healer DPS reduces a fight by 30 seconds, they've now reduced the amount of healing required by 6,000 HP. So, by contributing DPS in parts of the fight with low healing requirements, a healer is now reducing overall healing requirement via their DPS. This is indirect healing.

And no, healer contribution to DPS isn't small when the healer in question is playing properly. Can it be? Yes, it can, but it's no where near "3%" or "less than 8% of a regular DPS" as you like have noted in other forum posts that claim it to be if the healer knows their stuff.

===

My beef with your mindset is you're giving advice to encourage healers to play "completely average". The DPS advice is for a higher level play and will help elevate the healer to the next tier of skill once they can master the art of stance dancing. With that being said, what will then elevate that healer even further is knowing WHEN to stance dance. There will be instances a healer can go ham on DPS and there will be instances where a healer can only really heal and dig their party out of the huge hole. The best healers will have the ability to gauge their party and respond appropriately.

[KisaiTenshi]

I've been trying to avoid jumping onto here for a bit just to see how this pans out...

At least when you respond, you actually make a clear point. However the overtly negative conversations that happen on this forum, are always between the same two people, and it seems that nobody actually reads the post with the intent finding common ground, but rather try to frame the other person as talking out of their butt. I will not shut up about something just because they want me to.

My beef with your mindset is you're giving advice to encourage healers to play "completely average". The DPS advice is for a higher level play and will help elevate the healer to the next tier of skill once they can master the art of stance dancing. With that being said, what will then elevate that healer even further is knowing WHEN to stance dance. There will be instances a healer can go ham on DPS and there will be instances where a healer can only really heal and dig their party out of the huge hole. The best healers will have the ability to gauge their party and respond appropriately.

I'm suggesting that players don't go into the dungeons with the mindset that just because a skill is available that they must be using it whenever possible. The Minmaxing player is always a poor player when partnered with less experienced players since such players aren't happy unless everyone is minmaxing like they are. It's not the healers job to make up for weakness in the DPS players, and it's not the DPS players job to make up for weakness in the healer. There's things like Enmity to consider before using healing magic, or you end up tanking.

There same 5 or so people keep talking past each other on this forum. Go look at other forums and you will see similar statements from Tanks about letting the Healer or DPS tank if they step out of their role too. Comparing low level to Coil and CT like they are equivalent is just faulty logic to begin with, comparing newbies with munchkins.

[VanilleFang]

I moved things from the quoted post around a bit to better go with my thoughts and points.

That's the entire point of the argument in this thread. Is that bad healers DPS when they should be healing, and bad DPS heal when they should be trying to avoid taking damage in the first place. They are stepping outside of their roles at the expense the party.

Isn't this what I, and many others, have already said multiple times? I don't get why you need to point this out when I'm pretty sure basically everyone in this thread has already made this point. Nobody is disagreeing with this point, the only thing anyone disagrees on is when a healer should be healing. For example, your point that someone who is hurt 10-15% for WHM or 30% for SCH makes them a "heal-able" target, and that a healer shouldn't be DPSing if there is a heal-able target, is debatable. It is up to the individual to decide what they consider "heal-able" after analyzing how well the Tank takes damage, understanding the dungeon or raid and how the group works and plays. And no one in this thread is stating that a healer should primarily DPS, or ignore their main role.

And no the main point of this thread was, and is, about DPS and Tanks not understanding the SCH role and the fairies, and not trusting healers to do their job.

Here's a reality-check that Cynfael and Spoekes keep not getting. Just because you disagree with someone, doesn't make them wrong. If you can not justify stepping outside your role in the party, then you don't do it. Your angle is more like "if you're not doing everything to maximize dps, then stop playing."

The thing is is that it is hard to agree with you on a lot of things because you make everything black and white, or state it as such, when healing and FFXIV in general is much more "grey" in how it is to be played. And just because someone is disagreeing with you doesn't mean they are saying you are wrong. Not exactly. Except, of course, when you are.

Neither of them, as far as I can tell, have stated that you shouldn't play just because you aren't DPSing. What many of us are stating is that it is inefficient, and ineffective, to ignore the fact that healers can dps. That is more than enough reason to justify stepping out of your "role" to balance dps and healing. (I disagree that this is stepping "outside of your role" when a healer does some DPS, but that's just my opinion) You seem to assume that healers who DPS are bad, or dps more than they heal, or sacrifice their party for DPS. Or something.

Back to the context of this thread where DPS players are healing because they think the SCH is incompetent. The fairy is doing most of the healing in a low level dungeon, and you'd have to try pretty hard to get the fairy to not heal the tank, since the tank is the one taking most of the damage. The fairy can't compensate for poison status, or when the entire party has taken equal amounts of damage. If YOU the healer are actually doing your job, the DPS players should have no reason to try and heal.

Yes. In low level dungeons she will keep the tank alive most of the time, and even then it depends on how many mobs the tank grabs and how well they are geared. We also have to look at how well the DPS is dealing with Aggro. But no one is saying that the Fairy can't keep the tank alive. I was pointing out, in the context of your broad statement with little context as to what it was referring too, that the fairy will that the tank die. Your statement seemed to be stated "in general".

What you are saying here is basically what I said and I don't understand why you are restating it as if you are the one who is making the point. The fairy can't deal with status aliments (poison), the fairy can't deal with multiple targets very well, and the fairy doesn't distinguish between tank and DPS. All points I made to pointing out that no one can expect the fairy to keep the tank alive all the time. And again, I was pointing out the fairy, alone, keeping the tank alive and stating how it isn't actually correct to state that it will for most content. Which means I was obviously stating that a healer should heal when they need to and not always rely on Eos/Selene.

As a side point, I've only ever encountered one Tank that would have died within the 5 seconds of CS cooldown. And he didn't even hold hate, and was way under geared. If any one goes in assuming that a tank isn't going to be able to last 5 seconds then I think they have to look at their trust issues and their ability to expect other's to do well at their role.

At least when you respond, you actually make a clear point. However the overtly negative conversations that happen on this forum, are always between the same two people, and it seems that nobody actually reads the post with the intent finding common ground, but rather try to frame the other person as talking out of their butt. I will not shut up about something just because they want me to.

I don't want you to shut up, instead I want you to actually make a clear point yourself. I am still very confused about some of what you are saying but you seem to refuse to clarify.

There same 5 or so people keep talking past each other on this forum. Go look at other forums and you will see similar statements from Tanks about letting the Healer or DPS tank if they step out of their role too. Comparing low level to Coil and CT like they are equivalent is just faulty logic to begin with, comparing newbies with munchkins.

There is a clear difference between Tanking, Healing and DPSing. Making a comparison to Healers DPSing to that of DPS or Healers tanking is ludicrous. Though I will state that I have tanked a few lowbie dungeons as a healer before when the tank left, was bad, or got angry for some reason or another. But a healer or dps that pulls hate consistently and then the tank "lets" them tank, to make a point that they cant and should stop pulling hate, is different than a healer who does some dps. Pulling hate isn't "stepping out of their role" its them not managing aggro in their own role, or a tank not holding it well enough. I am confused at why you brought this up when it has nothing to do with this thread at all.

No one is comparing low levels with high levels. Except for that low levels should learn things for higher level content. Otherwise they will just be "average" or worse.