dungeon helpers

[KisaiTenshi]

This is nonsense. BLMs and SMNs attempting to heal themselves are generally incompetent (to put it more generously, perhaps they are very new and simply don't know better). The only time it is acceptable for the DPS caster to spend their GCDs on healing is when both of the following are true: 1) the healer is not healing (usually = they're dead) and 2) the DPS heals will at least keep the tank up long enough to give the group a chance of salvaging the situation.

Do you not see the connection between #1 and Healers DPS'ing? As I said, I'm only ever seeing this when playing SCH, not WHM. I'm not going to stop every party and go "look, I'm playing a scholar, I can throw DPS DoT's while the fairy heals" The DPS can not see the fairy's cast meter, because the fairy doesn't show up in the party list. The only reason anyone knows the fairy is healing them is that cast line that shows up.

People who play DPS and never healing roles, would obviously fail to make that connection between why the healer doesn't heal at 10% or 30% damage, and why the target shouldn't heal themselves like in other MMORPG's where healers are useless.

Many weeks and many threads of discussion later and you still don't understand how this works? I feel like this is the commercial with the elderly woman not understanding social media -- That's not how any of this works.

Many weeks and many dead horse beatings later, you still think I'm going "healers should stand still with their staff up their butt and do nothing"...

Let me spell it out again...

If people were playing the game like it was designed HEALERS WOULD NOT BE DPS'ING WHEN THERE ARE HEALABLE TARGETS, which is the entire point of this:

You know, whenever I'm on my SCH in a lower level dungeon, I find that other players (generally DPS) think that because I'm DPSing, I must not also be healing. I'm not sure if it's because Eos doesn't show what she's doing (as in, all they see is me DPSing.) I finally asked in my last dungeon where a DPS was healing (an arcanist.) Her answer was because I wasn't...

That ACN in that example was likely jumping the gun because they were seeing healable targets, but not at the threshold of which need healing for Eos. Now go back to my other statement:

That said, if a WHM is DPS'ing and not healing, it's VERY obvious. Because the tank will fall over in 10 seconds. SCH's Eos/Selene will never let the tank die,

If you're in a dungeon, especially a pre-30 dungeon as a SCH, you only have a single heal skill, Psysick, which is the same potency as Eos's Embrace. You can pretty much let the fairy do all the healing until the boss room. But when you do that, the other players will only see you DPS'ing, not healing.

If they want to take over healing, offer to unsummon the fairy and see how long they last.

[Cynfael]

Snip.

Too lazy to quote everything this afternoon, so short version from me:

1. Whether it's SCH or WHM doesn't matter. Only difference is that the WHM actually has to stop casting heals to effectively DPS. Either way an effective healer is still throwing in DPS as they are able, and this requires not overhealing the slightest injuries. When I play DPS, healers only make me nervous if I remain at low HP for an extended period of time; if I'm missing a moderate chunk and know that nothing else is likely to hit me for at least a few seconds, I continue doing my job and fully expect that I'll be topped off before the next unavoidable damage spike.

2. You specifically said If players are playing the dungeons like they are designed, healers would not be DPS'ing at all except when the party is taking no damage. This is not how you do it properly. It is not an all-or-nothing proposition. You DPS correctly as a healer by gauging the healing requirement for the situation and weaving in your DPS accordingly. It may sound like semantics, but the distinction is actually important.

[AskaRay]

If people were playing the game like it was designed HEALERS WOULD NOT BE DPS'ING WHEN THERE ARE HEALABLE TARGETS,

I still don't really understand this... if people played the game the way it was designed, tanks would only pull one mob group at a time, thus only taking damage from maybe three-four enemies, DPS would only AOE a bit of the time, and healers would be....bored if just healing. I mean, besides a few enemies most trash pulls don't hit that hard.

Remember SE doesn't really like people to pull all the trash up to a boss and AOE them down.

[KisaiTenshi]

I still don't really understand this... if people played the game the way it was designed, tanks would only pull one mob group at a time, thus only taking damage from maybe three-four enemies, DPS would only AOE a bit of the time, and healers would be....bored if just healing. I mean, besides a few enemies most trash pulls don't hit that hard.

Remember SE doesn't really like people to pull all the trash up to a boss and AOE them down.

When I say this, people are taking it way too literately. To refresh:

a) There are three "roles", Tank, Healer and DPS. If you step outside that role, you are taking ownership of the party failure. This is not suggesting that Healers should not DPS and DPS should not heal themselves, but rather if you step outside the role, you are still responsible for your role. With healers this is far more critical.

b) A healer that is DPS'ing when there are no healable targets is adding to the total DPS. A healer that is DPS'ing while other players (DPS/Tank) are healing themselves are subtracting from the total DPS. Hence again, you do NOT DPS while there are healable targets. If players were playing the dungeon instances with the minimum gear requirements instead of maximum, they would have no opportunity to DPS period, and instead need to conserve MP.

c) There is a certain threshold at which a healable target "needs" to be healed, and the goal posts move the farther away from the minimum gear requirement is. If the entire party is minimum gear, then overpulling would not even be an option, as MP would be exhausted between pulls. People keep forgetting this because parties are often comprised of over-geared tanks and over-geared healers with minimum geared DPS in the low-level dungeons. When it's reversed (minimum geared tank) the healer has spend a lot more time healing the tank, and thus has less opportunity to DPS. A minimum geared tank may have as much as a 50% difference in HP compared to a maximum one. That changes the healing requirements significantly when the amount of damage they take goes from 5-10% per hit to 40% per hit.

d) The dungeons are not designed to be speedpulled. You do so at your own risk. Healing requirements scale linearly, where as damage in AOE scales exponentially. So if each mob hits the tank for 3% damage (3 mobs), a regular pull might incur 10% damage every 5 seconds, but a speed pull of 10 monsters takes that to 30%, and some insane "to the boss room door" pulls can easily flatten an overgeared tank with bad timing of all the mobs striking at the same time. But two DPS timing their AOE's at the same time are doing damage to all 10 monsters at the same time. The more you pull, the more vital it is to avoid AOE's yourself, especially anything that stun/paralyzes (eg Morbol's.)

e) Please play with randoms in the Duty Finder if you think healing is too easy. I assure you that the only reason healers might be bored is when the party is actually good enough to not require as much healing as a band of newbies. Take that opportunity to DPS rather than stand still. You're never required to, and anyone who throws a fit about you DPS'ing or not DPS'ing is a poor player to begin with.


A lot of misconceptions about FFXIV come from players who apparently played WoW or GW or some other MMO where basically everyone is a DPS and few people pick healer roles because the healer role is too squishy, and other healing mechanics (eg pots) are cheaper and lack penalties. The Tank who chainpulls is an example of bringing bad habits from one MMORPG to FFXIV.

If you are going to play a game, you first play it like the developers intended it, and then when you see opportunity for emergent gameplay, that doesn't break the intent of the game mechanics, you take advantage of that. Trying to go straight to minmaxing every GCD just because it's there, is not not smart or efficient gameplay, and certainly isn't fun to play with party members who expect a pro every time.

[Alisi]

A lot of misconceptions about FFXIV come from players who apparently played WoW or GW or some other MMO where basically everyone is a DPS and few people pick healer roles because the healer role is too squishy, and other healing mechanics (eg pots) are cheaper and lack penalties. The Tank who chainpulls is an example of bringing bad habits from one MMORPG to FFXIV.

Not true in the case of WoW. Squishiness is completely dependent on the healing class you play and there are tons of healers (there's six different healing specs.) FFXIV is actually way, way, way more lax on these things. WoW has so many more restrictions and penalties that it isn't funny. You have no idea how good you have it herein FFXIV.

[Saseal]

Not true in the case of WoW. Squishiness is completely dependent on the healing class you play and there are tons of healers (there's six different healing specs.)

And in RO/Ragnarok Online, Full Support/FS Int/Vit priests with an uninterruptable cast gear were near unkillable xD; (used to have to get an Asura monk to kill with Guillotine Fist, along with a mob of peeps to bring down shielding spells like Kyrie..... which is basically stone skin)
People used to use them to tank in PVP/WoE and some MVPs/bosses/dungeon mobs instead of the actual tank classes...
ME priests, though.... not so much

[Cynfael]

When I say this, people are taking it way too literately. To refresh:

a) There are three "roles", Tank, Healer and DPS. If you step outside that role, you are taking ownership of the party failure. This is not suggesting that Healers should not DPS and DPS should not heal themselves, but rather if you step outside the role, you are still responsible for your role.With healers this is far more critical.

False. Using your full kit does not constitute "stepping outside your role." If you don't want to be taken so literally, then consider not making everything you say sound so black-and-white. The roles are there to ensure that parties have the bases covered, so to speak; they aren't intended to be straitjackets.

b) A healer that is DPS'ing when there are no healable targets is adding to the total DPS. A healer that is DPS'ing while other players (DPS/Tank) are healing themselves are subtracting from the total DPS. Hence again, you do NOT DPS while there are healable targets. If players were playing the dungeon instances with the minimum gear requirements instead of maximum, they would have no opportunity to DPS period, and instead need to conserve MP.

What constitutes a "healable target"? The majority of DPS who heal are doing it because they don't know any better or are just plain bad. When I play BLM I have rarely used my heals while the healer is alive, and generally only after I've observed that they are A) extremely bad and can't be trusted or B) dead. If it's actually the healer who is so bad that they are scaring the DPS into attempting to heal, that's purely about player incompetence and beyond the reasonable expectation of intelligent healer DPS.

Also, the last bit about minimum gear requirements and not being able to DPS/needing to conserve MP is not true in all cases. Overgearing certainly gives more breathing room for a few important reasons, but healing requirements vary depending on the situation, even at lower gear levels, and MP is not this precious, rare resource that needs to be hoarded at all costs; running dry should be a rare thing except if multiple rezzes are needed, especially in dungeons since you regenerate tons of MP between pulls even if making larger pulls.

c) There is a certain threshold at which a healable target "needs" to be healed, and the goal posts move the farther away from the minimum gear requirement is. If the entire party is minimum gear, then overpulling would not even be an option, as MP would be exhausted between pulls. People keep forgetting this because parties are often comprised of over-geared tanks and over-geared healers with minimum geared DPS in the low-level dungeons. When it's reversed (minimum geared tank) the healer has spend a lot more time healing the tank, and thus has less opportunity to DPS. A minimum geared tank may have as much as a 50% difference in HP compared to a maximum one. That changes the healing requirements significantly when the amount of damage they take goes from 5-10% per hit to 40% per hit.

Not sure when this became a speedrun discussion, but I don't see anything to disagree with here. It goes without saying that healers will spend more time healing when incoming damage significantly exceeds any mitigation or passive healing in place.

d) The dungeons are not designed to be speedpulled.

The devs might not want players to be able to pull an entire dungeon in one fell swoop, but if they truly wanted to thwart larger pulls, they would simply place more doors and more pits. Clearly the design allows for players to bite off a bit more if they can handle it.

e) Please play with randoms in the Duty Finder if you think healing is too easy. I assure you that the only reason healers might be bored is when the party is actually good enough to not require as much healing as a band of newbies. Take that opportunity to DPS rather than stand still. You're never required to, and anyone who throws a fit about you DPS'ing or not DPS'ing is a poor player to begin with.

Here's the thing: most of us who are giving people advice on how to play healer properly use the DF and play with actual random people on a regular basis. This information is not coming to you from the FFXIV Military Healer Academy; these are skills that we use every day in random settings.

A lot of misconceptions about FFXIV come from players who apparently played WoW or GW or some other MMO where basically everyone is a DPS and few people pick healer roles because the healer role is too squishy, and other healing mechanics (eg pots) are cheaper and lack penalties. The Tank who chainpulls is an example of bringing bad habits from one MMORPG to FFXIV.

If you are going to play a game, you first play it like the developers intended it, and then when you see opportunity for emergent gameplay, that doesn't break the intent of the game mechanics, you take advantage of that. Trying to go straight to minmaxing every GCD just because it's there, is not not smart or efficient gameplay, and certainly isn't fun to play with party members who expect a pro every time.

I'm pretty sure that the misconceptions about the healer role in this game are largely on your end. If players followed your admittedly literal-sounding advice, they would utilize only half of their toolkit for the most part and not become skilled with stance dancing at all. It's not just "pro" parties that allow a healer to assist; healing requirements are relatively minimal for most content, and even in the most healing-intensive content like T13 you can utilize your mitigation and healing tools to carve out windows for safe DPS contribution. Applying that to something like a 4-man dungeon isn't difficult.

Besides, if contributing DPS as a healer is a "pro" skill, it needs to be cultivated with practice. I certainly didn't start out realizing that I could provide a lot of DPS to my parties when I was a new healer; I was terrified even to click Cleric Stance on! With practice and by knowing my fights I became able to choose my moments with confidence and significantly boost party DPS while ensuring that I met healing requirements. That's all there is to it.

[VanilleFang]

Here's the thing: most of us who are giving people advice on how to play healer properly use the DF and play with actual random people on a regular basis. This information is not coming to you from the FFXIV Military Healer Academy; these are skills that we use every day in random settings.

This 100%. I'm not a member of a FC or a LS and I only play with PUGs. I have no trouble DPSing and healing in a group of randoms since I have a lot of practice with it and understand when DPSing is possible. I have made mistakes but I learn from them. My mistakes don't discourage me from DPSing.

[KisaiTenshi]

Besides, if contributing DPS as a healer is a "pro" skill, it needs to be cultivated with practice. I certainly didn't start out realizing that I could provide a lot of DPS to my parties when I was a new healer; I was terrified even to click Cleric Stance on! With practice and by knowing my fights I became able to choose my moments with confidence and significantly boost party DPS while ensuring that I met healing requirements. That's all there is to it.

Here's the problem. Every time someone comes to THIS forum asking for help, they get lynched if they do not DPS, and that chases people away from the role. The game needs more good healers, not people who pick healer just because it has a faster DF queue, and then abdicate doing any effective healing. That's why there are so many terrible healers, because they are being told they are useless if they aren't DPS'ing at every opportunity when that's not true at all. The game is designed for healers to do nothing but heal if that is what the duty requires, or they are not comfortable with using the rest of the toolbox. The tiny amount of DPS that the healer brings to the game is often not worth sacrificing the DPS players in the party to do so.

The impression given is that the same people offering advice, are playing with their FC's most of the time, and their experiences are completely out of touch with low level DF PUG's go. In "Hard" dungeons you get comments about "baby pulls" if they can't speedpull to the boss room door. The developers don't put a door everywhere because that's not even a remotely fun thing to because it gets old fast (go look at Mabinogi's dungeons, every single room is a locked room) and they shouldn't need to throw road cones at the party to make them kill every trash mob just to get to the next checkpoint.

This 100%. I'm not a member of a FC or a LS and I only play with PUGs. I have no trouble DPSing and healing in a group of randoms since I have a lot of practice with it and understand when DPSing is possible. I have made mistakes but I learn from them. My mistakes don't discourage me from DPSing.

I haven't been in a FC period, and I played V1.0 with this character on this server. What about the players who picked Healer to start, and then get screamed at the first time they enter a dungeon? Let healers learn their role before they start stepping outside it. Nothing is more discouraging in this game then having impatient jerks abandoning the dungeon after mistakes you or some other player make.

What constitutes a "healable target"?

Any target, including NPC's like Brayflox and the Pot in CT, where the damage taken (10-15% on WHM, or 30% on SCH) is most effective to cast the primary healing magic.

An overgeared tank playing their role will take much less damage than a newbie tank. Hence you can't ever make the assumption the tank is going to last the 5 seconds the cleric stance cooldown takes. This is why the SCH in CS matters a whole lot less because the Fairy is not going to let the tank die.

I'm pretty sure that the misconceptions about the healer role in this game are largely on your end.

I'm doing just fine on any content that DF parties actually form. I have yet so see anyone complain about healers lack of meaningful DPS, and the worst that shows up are the occasional Tank gnashing their teeth about not being able to pull every mob to the boss room door and survive.

[VanilleFang]

Here's the problem. Every time someone comes to THIS forum asking for help, they get lynched if they do not DPS, and that chases people away from the role. The game needs more good healers, not people who pick healer just because it has a faster DF queue, and then abdicate doing any effective healing. That's why there are so many terrible healers, because they are being told they are useless if they aren't DPS'ing at every opportunity when that's not true at all. The game is designed for healers to do nothing but heal if that is what the duty requires, or they are not comfortable with using the rest of the toolbox. The tiny amount of DPS that the healer brings to the game is often not worth sacrificing the DPS players in the party to do so.

No body here is saying that you should DPS while ignoring people who need to be healed. If there is an issue with DPS classes healing themselves instead of doing damage than I haven't seen it. I very rarely see a DPS heal themselves outside of low level dungeons, and in this case they have very little experience and are probably not use to someone else healing them or they don't trust their healer for whatever reason. If I see a DPS healing themselves I will ask them to just focus on DPSing and leave the healing to me as it will only slow down the progression through the dungeon.

I haven't been in a FC period, and I played V1.0 with this character on this server. What about the players who picked Healer to start, and then get screamed at the first time they enter a dungeon? Let healers learn their role before they start stepping outside it. Nothing is more discouraging in this game then having impatient jerks abandoning the dungeon after mistakes you or some other player make.

I... have no idea what you are trying to say here. I literally just said I wasn't a part of an FC and I don't party with people I know, ever. I picked up a healer from the start... What are you trying to say exactly?

Fairy is not going to let the tank die.

You're being too literal in the things you say. This is completely untrue. The Fairy is an NPC and as such has no feelings one way or the other about keeping the tank alive. Yes she will cast her Embrace spell when they drop below the thresh hold but she can't do much else. How is she not going to let the tank die? If the tank is taking 1k damage and she is only healing 800 the Tank will eventually die. Your comment is completely false. The Fairy will let the tank die because she will not change her tactic due to more incoming damage or status ailments. And she will also change her target if someone else is hurt more, regardless of role. She will let the tank die.