dungeon helpers

[Sida]

To be honest, you all seem to have the same argument. Healer's main job is to heal. If they are on top of the incoming damage, know what they are doing and are comfortable with it, they can damage. Healers should not be pressured to damage. But they don't need to shy away from it either if they feel they're ok with it.

[Cynfael]

Kisai, whenever I make a point here it seems to me that you hastily construct a straw man and then attack it instead.

Saying that healers should use their full kits does not mean telling them to throw the kitchen sink at every encounter regardless of whether or not it makes sense.

Being a true "min/maxer" means playing your role to the fullest within the context of your current situation. In no way is it efficient or fun to deliberately cause less experienced players to fail or even just to waste time and energy by being rude to them (that's called griefing and is an entirely different conversation).

About the only common ground that we seem to have is agreeing that healing is the primary responsibility, but even there I sometimes think that you believe that I and others of similar opinion are advocating healer DPS to the exclusion of common sense.

[Umbriere]

i just got my WHM to level 30. i still haven't learned to avoid boss mechanics because i generally have to heal and because my computer lags, i get affected by the boss attack right before i finish my heal. meaning i spend more mana healing something i couldn't avoid because i haven't learned the signs, and generally try to keep a distance from the tank. to prevent myself from being meleed.

[Alisi]

i just got my WHM to level 30. i still haven't learned to avoid boss mechanics because i generally have to heal and because my computer lags, i get affected by the boss attack right before i finish my heal. meaning i spend more mana healing something i couldn't avoid because i haven't learned the signs, and generally try to keep a distance from the tank. to prevent myself from being meleed.

It took me a while to realize it isn't really a computer lag issue with those zones of damage. You get the damage once the cast is finished and that, apparently, doesn't happen at the time the projection leaves the floor. It's a bit before then. It helped me to think of it as that I need to be out of those area way before the projection is gone and that has actually helped me a lot. Once I got that in my mind, I was able to more easily avoid those things and save my mana.

[KisaiTenshi]

i just got my WHM to level 30. i still haven't learned to avoid boss mechanics because i generally have to heal and because my computer lags, i get affected by the boss attack right before i finish my heal. meaning i spend more mana healing something i couldn't avoid because i haven't learned the signs, and generally try to keep a distance from the tank. to prevent myself from being meleed.

I find this affects healing magic more than DPS magic, but the second you see an AOE cone, move. If you wait until the cast completes, you are assured of being hit.

It took me a while to realize it isn't really a computer lag issue with those zones of damage. You get the damage once the cast is finished and that, apparently, doesn't happen at the time the projection leaves the floor. It's a bit before then. It helped me to think of it as that I need to be out of those area way before the projection is gone and that has actually helped me a lot. Once I got that in my mind, I was able to more easily avoid those things and save my mana.

If you target the boss monsters, if you see them casting something, move. If you complete any casting before their cast is complete, you're guaranteed to be hit. Unless...


Amdapor Keep Psycheflayer'a golems, Anantaboga have a "hide behind something" to avoid AOE. Then there's Manxome Molaa Ja Ja (Wanderer's Palace hard), Boogeyman (Amdapor keep Hard), Angra Mainyu (WoD) who you can avoid one AOE by turning around. In both of these cases you can just keep casting as long as you're in a safe position.

There are multiple bosses that involve hiding behind something to avoid a party-wide/raid-wide wipe, but again, in those cases you can just continue to cast from behind the object as long as the object doesn't block line of sight with what you want to cast target.

[aerialrave]

For a minute there I thought this thread was about me.

I have a similar story where I was playing on Black Mage and using Physick to heal because I was not satisfied with the way the White Mage in my party was healing.
I got yelled at because of it. Was almost an argument, but completely 1 sided as I just decided to ignore the person. The other 2 people in the party were silent and didn't seem to care either way. This continued on for most of the dungeon until the tank accidentally pulled a little too much and I said to myself "alright then let's see what you can do" and stopped healing. I didn't write that out of course, but that's what I was thinking to myself. Of course, the tank died, and then the healer died too, but I managed to clear the group with the other DPS with some well timed Sleeps and Physicks.

I couldn't help myself but chime in with a "You can handle the healing yourself, hm?". I couldn't help it, I was being flamed for the last 15-20 minutes. After that the healer left.
This was a cool story, bro.

What's the whole point? Well, you can't force your playstyle onto others, any more then they can force their playstyles onto you. Unless someone is doing something that severely impacts your chances of successfully completing the duty, you might want to just leave them alone. Suggestions won't hurt if you make them politely, but just remember that you can't force them to do what you want. Most people don't like being told what to do. After all, who died and made you captain? Personally I've started using the word "consider" a lot, as in, "consider healer lb" or "consider playing mage's ballad". That way I can truthfully say I've done my part in suggesting a better way without seeming like I'm taking charge and being rude.

In the end it shouldn't matter to you if a DPS is overhealing. As a Scholar, you are probably able to solo the entire dungeon by yourself. Just look on the bright side, if they are healing for a lot, you have to do it less, and you can DPS to your heart's content. That 4th person is not even necessary to have there, so you can just imagine being down a person. You can still complete the duty.

[Spoekes]

For a minute there I thought this thread was about me.

I have a similar story where I was playing on Black Mage and using Physick to heal because I was not satisfied with the way the White Mage in my party was healing.
I got yelled at because of it. Was almost an argument, but completely 1 sided as I just decided to ignore the person. The other 2 people in the party were silent and didn't seem to care either way. This continued on for most of the dungeon until the tank accidentally pulled a little too much and I said to myself "alright then let's see what you can do" and stopped healing. I didn't write that out of course, but that's what I was thinking to myself. Of course, the tank died, and then the healer died too, but I managed to clear the group with the other DPS with some well timed Sleeps and Physicks.

I couldn't help myself but chime in with a "You can handle the healing yourself, hm?". I couldn't help it, I was being flamed for the last 15-20 minutes. After that the healer left.
This was a cool story, bro.

From an outside view, and a strong bias for the healer's side, it reads like you were getting nervous because you were not healed what you felt was fast enough.
Especially on WHM who has less dots and cure II I tend to do this too, to keep dpsing a GCD longer and maybe make full use of cure II.
Without question, however, that guy talking you down all the time for this is most likely an idiot.

Making fun of the healer not able to fix the mistake the tank made and take it as a point for the first situation is kind of silly, but I guess it was deserved then ^^

What's the whole point? Well, you can't force your playstyle onto others, any more then they can force their playstyles onto you. Unless someone is doing something that severely impacts your chances of successfully completing the duty, you might want to just leave them alone. Suggestions won't hurt if you make them politely, but just remember that you can't force them to do what you want. Most people don't like being told what to do. After all, who died and made you captain? Personally I've started using the word "consider" a lot, as in, "consider healer lb" or "consider playing mage's ballad". That way I can truthfully say I've done my part in suggesting a better way without seeming like I'm taking charge and being rude.

In the end it shouldn't matter to you if a DPS is overhealing. As a Scholar, you are probably able to solo the entire dungeon by yourself. Just look on the bright side, if they are healing for a lot, you have to do it less, and you can DPS to your heart's content. That 4th person is not even necessary to have there, so you can just imagine being down a person. You can still complete the duty

Yeah that's the right apporach.

[Alisi]

Well, you can't force your playstyle onto others, any more then they can force their playstyles onto you. Unless someone is doing something that severely impacts your chances of successfully completing the duty, you might want to just leave them alone.

No, I can't force my style onto others. However, if there is no need for the extra healing (and in my case there was no need for the healing -- no one died or even got below 70% HP) then you're not living up to your end of the bargain. You're dead weight. I'm doing what I signed up to do plus more. You aren't. Why should the group carry you? Is that fair to the group?

As for your story: I disagree completely. What the tank did was his own fault, not the healers. The healer was overwhelmed. If you'd stopped healing on a normal pack of mobs and you wiped, that would be a different matter. This was out of her control. I don't know any really good healer who hasn't wiped because the tank pulled too many. It wasn't your healers fault.

[Cynfael]

You make some good suggestions, Aerial.

i would consider, though, that while you can't force someone to play well (just as you couldn't force the healer in your story to be competent), there are behaviors that really inconvenience the group and should be actively discouraged; unnecessary DPS healing is one of them. Even putting sheer DPS efficiency aside, a caster can drag an encounter out or even cause a wipe by allowing a large pull to outlive tank and healer cooldowns.

If something is wrong in a party, I'll make a polite request (e.g. I have a "Please sing Foe's when you can" macro for BRDs who sing nothing, ever. I'll even type a quick thanks if they comply). If the problem doesn't get fixed, I'll drop it since stopping to have an argument could waste even more time. If it's a severe problem that causes a wipe (e.g. DPS ignoring their jobs or the healer not realizing they are healing in CS), then my point is proven and the offending player either shapes up or is kicked if truly trolling.