iLv needs to change

[Ultimatecalibur]

Besides that, even in individual items, the Item Levels don't always compare correctly. In crafted gear, for instance, High Quality crafted gear is in most cases far better than its Normal Quality version (typically more on par with the next 5-level tier up, or in some cases better than that), but doesn't get any indication of that in its Item Level, which will be the same as if it were NQ.

As a general rule of thumb:
NQ < HQ = Pink = Green = Blue = Purple when ilevel is equal

[synesthetic]

I disagree with the tutorial idea in most cases. If information can be disseminated discreetly, like in this case, then that is infinitely preferable over having an in-your-face tutorial because they generally pull you out of the game. Not in a literal sense, but in the sense that tutorials are usually so on-rails/scripted/hand-holdy that you're not even playing the game anymore, and instead you're reading an animated manual.

The statement you quoted was not a jab at "casuals", a noun referring to players who don't commit a very high amount of time and energy towards the game. Rather, it was an adjective, and I was pointing at how the game both pushes people to understand the game at a certain level, yet also has so much content where people know they can clear by just autoattacking and going afk--the bare minimum to avoid being noticed and kicked for being afk. There's a lot people can be carried through, and a lot of people who don't know they're being carried; and when it matters, it often means the party suffers for it and doesn't have fun.

I'm quite aware most players are casual (in any sense of the term), and I'm not trying to change that. "Casual" does not automatically mean "bad". I just want the overall playerbase to improve.
People are capable of learning a lot without it being presented as a lesson. People who are more observant and inquisitive can pick up on a lot about the game on their own more easily than those who are relatively uninterested, but that doesn't mean those who lack drive can't or won't learn.

[Gilraen]

Honestly, iL needs to go. As a metric it's very poor, and is actually only serving to hurt players now. Blue Garter cleared Turn 13 in crafted gear, crafted gear! By iL standards now, crafted gear is 'too weak' for Turn 13. Even now my only hope of ever getting to those vaunted heights is by finishing relic, another thing that wasn't available when Blue Garter got their win (before anyone asks, I'm speaking of Zeta). I dare not imagine how bad this will be in Heavensward.

[Valkrist]

Honestly, iL needs to go. As a metric it's very poor, and is actually only serving to hurt players now. Blue Garter cleared Turn 13 in crafted gear, crafted gear! By iL standards now, crafted gear is 'too weak' for Turn 13. Even now my only hope of ever getting to those vaunted heights is by finishing relic, another thing that wasn't available when Blue Garter got their win (before anyone asks, I'm speaking of Zeta). I dare not imagine how bad this will be in Heavensward.

I completely have to disagree that iLVL needs to go. iLVL isn't now and have never been a measurement of how good players are. iLVL is there, and should continue to be there, to gate progression in a way that forces the player base to strive for better gear so that they can participate in harder events.

The current trend of the game is get just enough gear to bypass the iLVL check and then get in. If you remove iLVL checks entirely, you will without a doubt start seeing fresh level 50s entering dungeons like the newest three DFR-E or doing T5. Unless the goal of removing iLVL checks is to create an even weaker general playerbase, then I don't see the point of doing this.

Using a minority to explain the difficulty and how good the player base is the worst kind of example you can give. This is like saying that the richest 1% are doing fine and you should be too.

[Gilraen]

Using a minority to explain the difficulty and how good the player base is the worst kind of example you can give. This is like saying that the richest 1% are doing fine and you should be too.

I think you may have read a little too much into things there. I'm saying that iL is gating content, yes, but not as a measure of a player's ability. That has never been tied to iL as anyone who ran Turns 1-5 when they first came out can attest. But what iL IS doing is forcing players into chasing gear that, frankly, isn't necessary to complete the content. When iL first came out I had to gear up to do dungeons I didn't have any problems doing, and now I'm having to do it again just to make sure I can qualify for Coil. It's annoying and unnecessary given people have been farming Turn 13 before it's inclusion on the Duty Finder in Demon's, Ironworks and Soldiery gear, things that don't add up to iL123.

And while I don't personally use iL as a measure of player ability, the community at large does which only aggravates the damage iL has done.

[Valkrist]

I think you may have read a little too much into things there. I'm saying that iL is gating content, yes, but not as a measure of a player's ability. That has never been tied to iL as anyone who ran Turns 1-5 when they first came out can attest. But what iL IS doing is forcing players into chasing gear that, frankly, isn't necessary to complete the content. When iL first came out I had to gear up to do dungeons I didn't have any problems doing, and now I'm having to do it again just to make sure I can qualify for Coil. It's annoying and unnecessary given people have been farming Turn 13 before it's inclusion on the Duty Finder in Demon's, Ironworks and Soldiery gear, things that don't add up to iL123.

And while I don't personally use iL as a measure of player ability, the community at large does which only aggravates the damage iL has done.

When First Coil first came out, or second or even final... These content were locked to the general public not by iLVL, but by forming parties on your own to get these done. Everyone had to gather in the same place and you had the time and opportunity to inspect each and every person in the party. You could even hold a conversation with these people to get strategies or see if you're of like mind to tackle what's ahead. Everyone expected a certain level of gearing before entering. Just take Titan HM when it first came out. You checked each and every party member before even pulling Titan. If that person had less than 3k HP, they're out the door regardless of how many times they've claimed to have cleared Titan before. I'm not saying that they couldn't do it and haven't done it, but I'm saying that for both Coil and Titan alike, you tackle these fights [with pugs] with a minimum amount of gear in mind for your party.

The option to check gearing or people in general isn't there for DF. Even though the majority of these fights are not endgame, you still enter these fights expecting a minimum. You don't have the option to just leave the dungeon without getting penalized. You can't just randomly kick someone for not being geared enough for DF. This is why iLVL is important. iLVL's meant to prevent people from wasting each other's time by the people who aren't geared enough to a to possibly complete the dungeon.

When Final Coil was unlocked, an iLVL requirement was slapped on without consideration for the actual difficulty, but instead were given iLVL requirements based off of a progressive scale. It is quite unfortunate that iLVL cap has gated capable people from farming T12 and T13, especially now that Echo is in effect making the gearing not as important. Now don't take offense to this, but a pretty small amount of people are affected by this if compared to the general population of the game. I'm quite sure though that everyone doing Final Coil with people they don't know would want their party members with a minimum of i121 or close before entering to test their skills. Any less than that, even if they're the best player, their gearing will severely effect their DPS and their HP to even survive.

Before I even make this example, I know I'm going to get chastised for making a real world example when we're playing a game. But put up with the example and try to picture the scenario without bias. As an employer, you set "minimum requirements" and "recommended skills" for the applicant. These are in place to weed out people from applying before they waste the employer's time and resources. What if the same employers are looking for a skilled employee but didn't do the initial screening process and let everyone through the front door and try the job the first day to assess them? The employer will obviously be naive and lose lots of time and resources trying each and every applicant. With this example, they're not applicants, they're really employees for a day. The losses and frustration would pile up needlessly. Well what if there was still the screening process using minimum and recommended requirements and someone was still qualified to do the job, but didn't have the credentials? They'd be turned around and escorted back out the door without a second thought. What if the qualified person was friends with someone high in the company? Lenience may be allowed and they'd be given a shot. Every single facet of the example I gave could immediately be ad-libed to reflect making a party in this game. People don't want to be spending time sorting through people that don't have the documentation saying that they're qualified. Friends within the party will vouch for certain people and give them a chance.

iLVL is the game's version of "minimum requirements". A problem that has been talked about in this thread is saying that the current iLVL requirements are not weighed properly. While it's not unilaterally agreed what to be doing with iLVL, everyone agrees that something has to be done to better reflect what's minimally expected.

[Waeksyn]

Frankly I think everyone is over thinking this. Yes the weapon is more important. However, there should be no problem with anyone being able to do content that has a minimum iLvl requirement as long as they meet that level - and that is it's only purpose. Seems like a simple, effective mechanism.

[KaedrianLiang]

/opsnip

I'm thinking they should detach Main-hand ilevel from the armor and accessories, give it its own category of ilevel rating/requirements and make it so that this only applies to extreme trials, and the higher tier of raids outside of 24player.