Do you think sell groups are hurting end game community?

[Izsha]

Just because you can't fathom making that kind of gil doesn't mean its impossible. People think 'I can't make millions and millions so the ONLY possible explanation people are rich is they bought it'. Wrong.

Stop projecting your limitations on other people. There are many, many, legit rich players that are better at making money than you. If you don't have millions in this game it's your own dumb fault due to ineptitude or lack of dedication to the task. Don't stuff everyone into your tiny world view.

That doesn't mean their aren't rmt, but this blanket idea that the only way to be rich is to hardcore nolife the game or steal mommies card is stupid and wrong.

[GenJoe]

So why are you putting so much effort into caring about what gives other people their sense of accomplishment in this game if you do not care about other people's personal goals? Let people enjoy the game the way they want to enjoy it and you do the same. You're wasting so much of your energy trying to tell people that their personal goals and accomplishments are worthless to you here. I mean frankly, your personal goals and feelings are moot to me as well, but I'm not writing walls of text to shove my opinions in your face because that's just arrogant.

You pay your subscription, you play how you want. Other people pay their subscription, they play how they want. If, at any time, our playstyles conflicts with each other, well there's a ton of other people you can spend your time with, you don't need to worry about us huh?

I am not, you misunderstand me.
If you care about your own progression, good, that SHOULD be important to you.. YOU.

Other people's progression? I don't know why that's so important to anybody else. I'm simply pointing it out to the people who believe that people who buy for clears are cheating their way to the top or something (I agree, they are, but they're like what, the 1000th person to clear it?), who cares? It's their gil, let them be stupid and spend it on an empty achievement.

Even in a real life marathon, sometimes you see these things on the news where a person in a wheel chair is wheeled in by a partner and people cheer etc. etc.. Do some people really care so much about sportsmanship that they would revoke their medals for coming in at 500th place?? Really?



Read my posts word to word, you and I are saying the exact same things, you play your game how you like it (raid progression), I play my game how I like it (crafting/MB) , others play theirs how they please (buying for clears included), let it be is all I'm saying.. People buying clears don't cheapen your experience one bit, don't get so worked up over it.

My post was more of a retort to this guy.

I'm against buying runs, not because of the gil demand it generates, but because it allows people to pay-to-win. I believe the end-game content should be earned and only completed by those who actually had the skills and effort required.

He seriously cares about how OTHER people got their clears?? Why is that of importance to ANYBODY??

inb4 I did coils before it was cool

I don't really care what you believe my goals in the game should be. An MMO, this one especially, has several avenues of advancement that individuals could consider their goal. And seeing others use gil and/or real money to circumvent any effort or skill normally required lessens the accomplishment for all those that complete it, since onlookers can't correlate the accomplishment with the skill/effort anymore.

You're awful competitive in a pve game...

Like I tell my kids when they ask me to beat a level they are stuck on in a game. I can offer advise and show you how to do it, but you need to do it yourself. If someone else does it for you then you wont be able to do the next boss, or the next boss. They only get harder and by skipping the lessons the bosses teach you, you will be less prepared for things to come. I know its tough but you need to see what you are doing and how you need to adapt to win.

That's nice, I can agree with you on the value of teaching your children why putting in your own effort to achieve a goal is important. But you wouldn't gather around with pitch forks to rally around somebody's house just because he used a cheat code.. From the looks of it, some of the people here might and the lengths these people are willing to go.. is kinda scary really.

I know a couple people who are solely focused on crafting and playing the market board, and they have more gil than I can even dream of having.

Divine and Jay eh?

[scarebearz]

The biggest problem is lazy people who want to even pay someone to play the game for them lol.

Interestingly, this does seem to be much more of a "Western" issue.

[Nicobo]

This is a RPG world, players buy services from other players, it is RPG life.
IMO, buying a crafted item, requesting a meld, buying a run, all are services.

[ShaneDawn]

A farmer in real life can grow his or her own crops and have a sense of accomplishment that they grew their own food. But does that make people with different jobs who buy food at a supermarket any lesser?

We buy food because we need it to live. Since when has raid completion been a necessity for playing this game?

Since you guys like irl examples, here's one; meet person A. A is a person of individual and social talent. The person is a hard working go-getter who sees a lot of effort to meet his goals. The only way he can get into the top universities is by sheer effort alone, as his family is poor.

Meet person B. Person B is of a wealthy and prestigious family. He has some personal talent, but has never recognized as a hard worker. He is lax and does not put effort into studying; he knows his father will just pass the buck to the best university in the country to get him in.

[ShaneDawn]

While this is not a perfect example, it seems fitting for most cases. I know some people actually work hard for their gil, but let's face it; if I work hard at the office, am I to expect to get into a winning match of a football team simply by tossing my money at them? While I don't discredit peoples' efforts at making gil, I don't think the effort and skill put into raiding and making gil correlate. They are two completely different things.

Besides, I don't expect to progress my crafting classes by doing raids (unless I jump the run-sell bandwagon, but let-
's not go there), so why should crafting get you progress in raiding?

[GenJoe]

Besides, I don't expect to progress my crafting classes by doing raids (unless I jump the run-sell bandwagon, but let-
's not go there), so why should crafting get you progress in raiding?

That's where you're not understanding me..
Progression in raiding, I define that differently.
Just beating content for the sake of completion is not the same as beating it from the ground up.
Same as how joining an already established FC is much different than starting your own from bottom up and expanding.
Which is why I keep saying, people buying their way up should not in any way, cheapen your own experience if you worked for it..


Most people who buy clears only do it to get past the gate, whether it's to get the story out of it, or to get into FCOB groups because nobody does T9 anymore.
Are there some people who buy runs to get a full set of gear? I'm sure there are a few people doing this, but for most people who buy clears, it's a one time deal.

I think you're misunderstanding me as an advocate of run-selling.. as I've said repeatedly, I don't buy, nor sell runs. I simply don't partake in it period, but I just see a problem when people start to tell OTHER people what they can and cannot do within the scope of the game that's perfectly legitimate under the ToS.




Since you brought up a topic of buying your way through college, I'll give you an example:

Some years ago, wal-mart heiress bought her way to her degree, and subsequently had to give up her diploma.
I believe it was University of Southern California. Now, when she got caught with cheating, did all of the student body drop out of the school, and the alumni throw away their diploma because the integrity of the school had been compromised?

No, because if you truly believe something is worth chasing, how some other people cheat their way should not deter you from pursuing your goals.
The only way/reason an imposter would cheapen your own achievements would be if it's an achievement that's a gateway to granting you new opportunities (college degrees DO count in this category, that's why your example has an additional dimension that makes it unethical) OR is a common form of gaining external approval from other people. In my opinion, raid progression is neither of those things, which invalidates anybody crying foul when another person pays to get their end.

The people that DO cry foul over it, should agree that raid progression doesn't grant you new opportunities in this game (short of progressing), it's not like an elite FC is going to pick you up because you have a Final Witness title, do they? I don't think so... Unless you got server first or something, which is something you cannot buy with gil.

So why do they make such a ruckus? Because they see it as a tool for getting external approval, the oohs and ahhs of random people they meet in game. which is where my standing in Mor Dhona with your weapons out comment came from, after reading what you've had to say, I don't think you ARE one of those people, but you know the kind of people I'm talking about.. Those are the ones that make the biggest fuss over this deal.

Besides, I don't expect to progress my crafting classes by doing raids

To make my stance on the matter clear, you're more than welcome to, I wouldn't consider your crafter status any differently if you supplemented it by selling runs, crafting, or gathering.. it's what you do with your crafting AFTER reaching end-game that make you stand out as a crafter and I would hope it's the same for raiders too, or does your game end the moment you beat T13?

[KarstenS]

Here you say:

Anyway, from what I'm seeing, it seems the base of a lot of the anti-sell arguments is that run sells are so expensive that the only way people can afford them is to buy gil through RMT.

That's untrue.

And here you say:

Without any concrete statistics, nobody can say for certain in either direction.

The one or the other?

Btw. I do know many high end crafters and harcore binders. I get big eyes when I see everyones gil numbers have 9 digits.

Do they buy kills?

No.

Why?

They are sucessfully raiding their own.


People that buy kills because they can't shedule for raids also can't shedule for making the needed amount of legit gil. Only a rare minority of the crafers would buy their kills because they do not raid.

There is your opinion and mine.

But when I look at the facts

- Kill selling increasing
- RMT increasing
- only a minority of high end crafters buy kills

my opinion is way more possible than yours.

If you still not believe me, tell me please what the gil buyers do with all that growing amount of RMT gil?

People don't buy gil just to have a nice number. They buy it because they want to to something with it immediately.

If they would buy stuff from marketboard, the prices would increase. But they are not growing. They are falling like hell. Falling prices always are caused by a worse demand.

[StrejdaTom]

People that buy kills because they can't shedule for raids also can't shedule for making the needed amount of legit gil. Only a rare minority of the crafers would buy their kills because they do not raid.

No, just.. no. There are people who have unstable work time and they can get called even at 7PM to go to work etc. You cannot throw everyone in the same bag. To raid in static you have to be online regularly in some time, to craft you can log in whenever you want.

[Casper]

I have a question. If you guys assume that the majority of people buying runs have bought their gil, do you also assume that the majority of zeta owners bought their gil ? Same with pentamelded gear ?

Cause let me tell you, son, buying runs has nothing on those two activities money-wise. At 300-400k a pop for IV materias, getting full crit/det zetas or pentamelding equipment quickly becomes more expansive than buying a couple of early FCOB runs, and other stuff is even less expensive.

Inb4 "people SB for their IV materias for their zeta !!" ; Yeah they can SB for zetas, but they can't SB to sell materias for buying runs, amirite ?

TL;DR pentamelded items and zetas already cost more than stuff obtained through bought runs, so i don't buy the "It's all RMT money !"' argument one bit.