Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

[Havenae]

For the op.
And I'm sorry if I'm saying something everyone else has already said but I feel like giving my two cents.

I don't have a problem with elitists. I don't have a problem with people wanting to excel and do their very best. However the described scenario on the first page of the OP's post is rarely the case, it is usually the opposite of that. Elistist type people getting bent out of shape because somone is trying to learn new content and they feel burdened because they have to "carry them". Well breaking news, ladies and gents. You're playing an MMO, you're going to run into people of different skill and experience levels. If that's a problem for you, there's an entire genre of games where you can play by yourself, or even only people you select.

Anyway... What I do have a problem with is rudeness and the toxic behavior exhibited, often by elitists toward new player or less experienced players as they attempt to learn content. Yes running an instance over and over again makes the content easy, FOR YOU. People just beginning to run or have only ran once or twice the content, it isn't easy, they're going to fuck up, they're going to die. It doesn't mean they're not putting in effort. That's the primary problem with the OP's post, is this assumption that if you're dying, or you make a mistake then you're just not trying and you're goofing off. You say that some people don't want superior players in their game (and you don't believe that) but what I do think you believe is you apparently don't want newer inexperienced players in your game.

Which is an utterly stupid stance to take if you wish this game to continue to be successful.

[Aryalandi]

Personally the only time I ever watch videos the first time is if i know the fight will be complicated going in, if it is my first time doing something the very first thing i do upon entering the dungeon/ect is ask if there is anything I should do or watch out for then sit and read and re-read.

If i do something wrong i apologize and try harder, that is just how i play, and if i find myself dragging the party down no matter how hard i try i will excuse myself so they can find a rep /then/ go watch a video and try again. I like seeing things (cutscenes especially) for the first time when i am doing it myself

That said i have also never joined a party specifically demanding prior knowledge before because that is selfish and just isn't something that anyone should do, but to expect everyone to spoil their experience the very first time by watching other people do it can also be selfish

[Lemuria]

But... if you're lv 50, how CAN you not dodge a blaring red spot right under your feet? No explanation, the person is simply not paying attention or underestimating the effects of the aoe, thinking they could just soak it up.. Neither of which deserve advice, advice can't fix that, there's no secret to dodging aoe, just gotta stay focused.

There are countless reasons. Healers mid-spell cast trying to keep a tank alive, thinking they'd have just enough time to escape. Lag spikes on your connection. What if the skill itself is NOT telegraphed and doesn't even have an AoE marker? Divebombs are a good example of that mechanic, and there are plenty of others.

Experienced players often forget that there's a lot to take in for some of the later fights. A lot of dodging required, some times you'll misjudge something, avoiding one AoE only to run into the path of another. Some AoE's are quite sizable too, meaning you have to already be moving when the skill is cast to dodge it. Not everything is black and white, and when people realise that mistakes are a natural part of learning it's much easier to forgive the odd error in judgment.

[Sanne]

From my perspective "elitist" and "good" are two different things.

When I am in a group with a good player they are usually quiet or they're helpful. If they see me goofing something up they'll offer advice in a non condescending way and I am always happy to listen since the insights of more experienced players are valuable. I've been playing this game for less than a month, I don't shun advice.

But then there are "elitists" as the internet has come to define them. They're also objectively good players but if they see me die to something their reaction is "Get good", "kick the mage" or "...seriously?" That's not helpful, that's antagonistic. Reactions like that just don't make us newbies feel very good about ourselves. Trust me when I say we don't like goofing up either.

I like to think that most people know the difference between these groups but it's human nature to remember negative experiences over neutral ones. There may be a knee-jerk reaction that comes over newer players when they see someone who is well geared and they just assume they'll be berated so they start snarling at the other players as a preemptive defense mechanism.

When I was playing a different MMO I was a high end raider and I dealt with sneering newcomers by being patient and kind. Sometimes they settled down sometimes not because some folks are just...well...obstinate jerks. Can't fix that.

This. Couldn't have said it better myself, this is how I view it also.

A good in-game friend of mine, is a great player, whatever job he does, he soon is great at it.
But he is a very nice player, he helps others when they ask, and if he thinks someone did bad, he won't say it, or when asked, he will say it in very polite encouraging/advising way.

He learns me a lot, but sometimes it is bit discouraging, I do so my best, and still can't even be close to how good he is.
But I will keep trying, maybe if I do it enough my fingers become faster, and I click the wrong skills less

I have nothing against great players, but I have something against bad attitude.

I call it elitist, but we can give it an other name if people prefer that...

[Jamein]

On the subject of knowing the fights before you go in.

DF = Anything goes, I have no control over the members, if they know the fight they know it, if it not well just gotta do what you can.
PF = You can control what type of group, you can ask for people with prior knowledge, clears, or just a learning party.

So in other words, if someone doesn't know the fight in DF you have no right to get annoyed, that's how it goes.
On the flip side, you have NO right to get annoyed if you are excluded from PF because someone requests you know the fight. That is their party, they are taking the time to make it they dictate who joins. You're always welcome to create your own PF for learning purposes.

[GenJoe]

There are countless reasons. Healers mid-spell cast trying to keep a tank alive, thinking they'd have just enough time to escape. Lag spikes on your connection. What if the skill itself is NOT telegraphed and doesn't even have an AoE marker? Divebombs are a good example of that mechanic, and there are plenty of others.

Experienced players often forget that there's a lot to take in for some of the later fights. A lot of dodging required, some times you'll misjudge something, avoiding one AoE only to run into the path of another. Some AoE's are quite sizable too, meaning you have to already be moving when the skill is cast to dodge it. Not everything is black and white, and when people realise that mistakes are a natural part of learning it's much easier to forgive the odd error in judgment.

Obviously, I'm referring to the AOEs that have the telegraphs... No amount of "advice" will help the person dodge that.. If they're lagging, too bad, can't teach'em how to account for the delay.
If they thought they'd have enough time, well now they know.. or at least "should" know.

What I'm saying is, there are many instances where the mistakes people make are so beyond correcting with a word of advice, that's when people no longer try the constructive criticism..

Sure, if it's a non-telegraphed aoe, then most people will explain the mechanics if you just ask.. in a learning party. Problem is some people think they know everything when clearly, they don't.. That gap is what causes the problems. In order to give advice, you have to have a receptive audience. Many cases, people are not receptive regardless of your delivery.
Some people are incapable of learning, and some people just REFUSE to learn other people's way of doing things.. In either case, if you belong in that group, stay out of the end-game raids, it's not for everybody.. I myself being one of them also, I stay out of the end-game raids.. I don't wanna put in the work and I sure as hell don't expect other people to carry me through them.

[Ehr]

I suppose I'm the odd "elite" then since I think that those that are "elite" should help the less experienced, I mean the ones willing to learn, and pass on the knowledge and things they've learned to those that are learning (i.e. yesterday someone asked me to get on their mumble and give them healer tips for T13 since healing was a roadblock for their group). I say I'm odd because my whole FC and another LS say I have a "helping addiction" so I might have a higher tolerance than I others I guess. In other words those of higher skill should teach those that are willing to learn and not just seclude themselves to their cliques because you might be creating more "elite" players for you to play with. Just my opinion

Now I have run into those antagonistic "elitists" that people complain about. They always place all of their mistakes on others and never admit to their own mistakes and always call out and berate another in the party for a simple mistake. I would also say that the "inexperienced" players will sometimes (or most of the time) blame their mistakes on lag/"you didn't tell me this"/whatever manner of excuse they come up with. People need to learn to 1) admit their mistakes and 2) if they're new and they make a mistake, apologize if your group is upset and ask what you can do better next time if your confused. Now I am not by any means defending the people who go on the forums and complain about "elitists" but from my point of view it's the few vocal people who are giving the majority a bad rep.

Sorry if my post doesn't make sense, it's 3 AM -_-'

[GenJoe]

I mean the ones willing to learn

Key phrase: willing to learn.. Simple, unfortunate fact is that many are not and just come to the forums to complain about the difficulty and demand SE nerfs the content so they can finish it without putting in any effort. OR even worse, they try to sneak into farming groups and hope for a carry.

[Kallera]

Key phrase: willing to learn.. Simple, unfortunate fact is that many are not and just come to the forums to complain about the difficulty and demand SE nerfs the content so they can finish it without putting in any effort. OR even worse, they try to sneak into farming groups and hope for a carry.

All these clarifications(some of them still generalized and ignores the fact that important story content was behind things a large chunk of the playing audience could not see, a far cry from the main scenario) mean that people are getting caught in the crossfire of the hardcore/casual arguments. There is insufficient support from the community to allieve this issue; and some people even say they prefer the "salt", so people turned to the devs, and that is why fights were retuned, echo applied, and Alexander planned for both audiences. That is the design solution.

Do I think there is a community solution? Not really, as community is quite limited in its influence on each other. As much as we complain about the nameless "you people" that are supposedly behind killing our progress for the day, there will be others saying that its your fault instead or that the general situation "is what it is" or that we should buck up, because person B of Zalera isn't saying its a problem, and he has 2.5 kids.

We can individually choose not to endorse the behavior of our stereotypes, but trying to whitewash the experiences of others by misappropriation of an established term isn't going to sit well.

[GenJoe]

All these clarifications(some of them still generalized and ignores the fact that important story content was behind things a large chunk of the playing audience could not see

and if you'd played other MMOs, you would just accept that as the norm.. Which circles back to my earlier argument that majority of FF14 player base are first time MMO players and have different expectations.


It's unfortunate but what can you do? Implement the end-game raids in a manner that ANYBODY can just go in unprepared and beat it for story?
Or don't put ANY story behind the end-game raids at all?
I suppose a third solution exists for SE, to implement 2 different difficulties for each raid, but the lower difficulty version would have to give lower lvl loot, which will make the raid obsolete very fast.

There's no easy solution to please everybody. It's an MMO, people just have to come to grasps with the fact that they will likely not experience 100% of the content the game has to offer.

At least in this game, the old content will remain as is so you can always experience it later when the content becomes obsolete and nerfed. Don't have time/money for the relic quest all the way to zeta? Wait til 3.0, they're going to nerf that. Don't have the time/skills to clear final coils? Give it time and try when it's no longer relevant, likely after 3.0.

My suggestions may sound ridiculous, but so is expecting to clear end-game contents without putting in any specific effort.. If you're not willing to put in the time, you're not really in it for the challenge, so why not just wait until the challenge is gone? Story will still be around later, at least be glad that the World in FF14 remains the same after the expansion so you can always experience the old content at your own pace..