PLD any better than WAR?

[Purrfectstorm]

WARs have two resources for big pulls (TP and MP). PLD only have one.
WARs run out of TP fast on big pulls. PLD run out of TP more on bosses.
WAR have no way of recovering resources. PLD have Riot Blade combo to recover MP.
WAR can mitigate big hits better. PLD can mitigate lots of smaller hits better.
WAR have a unique debuff (Storm's Path). PLD have a unique debuff (Rage of Halone).
WAR tank stance is not on GCD but you lose HP if you drop it. PLD tank stance is on GCD and you lose MP if you switch.
WAR can shut off tank stance damage reduction (Unchained). PLD can't shut off tank stance damage reduction.
WAR have an off GCD stun to easily stop specific abilities. PLD have a GCD stun to easily stun lock certain mobs.
WAR cannot silence a mob. PLD can silence a mob.
WAR cannot cover an ally. PLD can cover an ally.
WAR cannot Stoneskin self or others during downtime. PLD can Stoneskin self or others during downtime.
WAR can pull enemies closer and bind them (Holmgang). PLD can break heavy and bind and prevent knockback (Tempered Will).
WAR emergency button (Holmgang) saves you but you will need major healing. PLD emergency button (Hallowed Ground) saves you and you won't even take damage.

Both tanks are very good. Some argue WAR is more fun because you are not spamming 1-2-3. However, your rotation really is not much more complex: occasional Inner Beast, refresh Maim with Storm's Eye or Storm's Path combo. PLD has more general utility (back when silencing ADS was a thing, for example) and you have more skills to directly aid the team (Cover and Stoneskin).

I'm not an endgame expert but I play both tanks all the time and both have fights they are better suited for. In fights that require 2 tanks, I think I'd almost always bring 1 of each.

[RiceisNice]

...

Not sure what paladins you're playing with that would run out of cooldowns for those fights at those given times. My references were for pre-echo as well; if you had ideal dps you wouldn't be staying in that phase of the fight long enough for cooldown's to actually be a problem on the paladin's end (five/six stardusts, two critcal rips, 3 flattens, etc).

For the record, I'm speaking in context about tanking in general (PLD vs WAR in all areas, including MTing). When you mention long-drawn out fights, damage they take outside of tank busters is a concern as well.

[Isius]

So the great debate of which FFXIV tank is better continues yet again. This will always be a endless debate with no ending, even more so when Dark Knight becomes playable. I have already chosen what tank class I prefer, but personally OP just play the tank that is most fun for you.

Also wanted to leave this here, since several people accidentally misinformed others about this skill. (Rage of Halone does 10% str debuff) not 5%. It gets traited to 10% at lvl40 on GLD.

[Shougun]

Imo, SE did a great job capturing their themes.

As a Paladin you can really feel like a team player (bit of the "safe bet"), I've on many occasions saved wipes by giving that healer that extra few hundred hp (stoneskin generally > cure) or even stopping DD from weakness stacking. Cover making you feel like a real best friend's tank, placing it on your lala healer and then knowing they see you 'covering' them so they start to hug your leg - it also makes prioritizing weird aggro really calm as you can cover a threat generator and organize your pile. Hallowedground also makes you feel boss - 0 damage.. 0 - and your healers can drop healing for 10 seconds and pump out a few holys (or gasp for breath). Shields procing many times a fight and then bulwark and lol everything is reduced by a bit, while giving you an incredibly cheap attack it also allows you to shutdown most generic skills. Stun locking monsters and mechanics like no one else can. Need an emergency silence? The combos are easier imo, but it lets you think of other things like being a support or of course very importantly when to schedule that defense cooldown during more important fights.

As I haven't played Warrior as much (is 50) I'll just leave it that it felt and appears that they're the mad man(woman) who laughs and kills at the same time, while yelling nope right when someone thought they had the uppperhand (many self cures and things like vengeance + blood bath). It is appealing and I had a lot of fun, but when I wanted to put myself in the mindset as the protector rather than the berzerker I wanted to play Paladin (but both can tank!).

If I were to min max and everyone was doing their job very well I might start to lean more towards Warrior, but /imo/ running DF as Paladin feels like playing Sam right before Frodo tries to rage quit.

[Brill_]

Imo, SE did a great job capturing their themes.

If I were to min max and everyone was doing their job very well I might start to lean more towards Warrior, but /imo/ running DF as Paladin feels like playing Sam right before Frodo tries to rage quit.

This. Warrior is way more fun to play. I find paladin is a lot more forgiving when I am not in the perfect group.

[Izsha]

Not sure what paladins you're playing with that would run out of cooldowns for those fights at those given times. My references were for pre-echo as well; if you had ideal dps you wouldn't be staying in that phase of the fight long enough for cooldown's to actually be a problem on the paladin's end (five/six stardusts, two critcal rips, 3 flattens, etc).

For the record, I'm speaking in context about tanking in general (PLD vs WAR in all areas, including MTing). When you mention long-drawn out fights, damage they take outside of tank busters is a concern as well.

My point isn't to say war is better. My point is to dispelled the common notion that war cooldowns all suck and pld is a better MT because they have better CDs. They are very well balanced.

War excels at tank busters with higher burst levels of effective hp primarily because of inner beast and lower recasts on those CDs. Pld excels at high sustained mitigation via shield, but has weaker burst defense and very high recasts. Throughout any serious fight both sustained mitigation and burst is important. So they both tank adequately in just about everything.

The stereotype that war is somehow a wet paper bag vs pld is just wrong, but it seems to stubbornly persist in game and on forums. People still think defiance is weak and war CDS aren't as potent as pld when stances are in fact virtually identical and as shown before, war actually has higher effective hp and more often than pld for tank busters. But still the stigma persists in every war vs old thread that ever appears. /sigh.

[graudon]

They are both doing their job fine with tanking and also debuffs. Its all about play style and the raid needs. U can achive end game content with both tanks but raid strategy changes in every coil so having them both is the best

Pala is more like a turtle with more deffensive options in the other hand warrior has more aggresive abilities and sustained health pool. When it comes to tanking pala is easier in some cases but also there are some times that warrior is better (dunno if this is a answer for u )

[Zykor]

The stereotype that war is somehow a wet paper bag vs pld is just wrong, but it seems to stubbornly persist in game and on forums. People still think defiance is weak and war CDS aren't as potent as pld when stances are in fact virtually identical and as shown before, war actually has higher effective hp and more often than pld for tank busters. But still the stigma persists in every war vs old thread that ever appears. /sigh.

Did you ignore bulwark on purpose? With a zeta shield the block rate and strength is at 34%, and it goes up to 94% rate with the CD (it is additive). In t13, for flattens, if I do not have sentinel up, rampart and bulwark is up - which is the same as the warriors strongest defensive combo - IB & Vengence. Even in T12, with a tank swap, I use sentinel & rampart together because of why not.

And in T13, Paladins only have to choose where to use sentinel if holmgang is used on the 2nd Ahk Morn. If used on the 3rd, there is no problem.

[RiceisNice]

...

I don't believe that warrior is inferior to paladin in general, but again they both fall short on some areas. They can still perform the role, but one does better than the other in some aspects. Which is why I still think paladin makes for a better main tank in the long run because again, tank busters are far from the only aspect in a fight.

Even if you try to speak of effective hp, there's a matter of healing back up that hp, and the 20% increased healing intake does not exactly make up for the 25% increased hp pool ( or does the self healing because that doesn't occur all the time and it's really not the case if you're using IB for the damage mitigation). On top of that having a paladin OT is a lot more room for error because they don;t have a non-enmnity combo (where I can still rip aggro in sword oats, str accessories or not) and my options for snap aggro are a bit limited compared to a warrior.

I still believe that paladin makes for a better main tank for those reasons, but not necessarily not a better tank in general.

So the great debate of which FFXIV tank is better continues yet again. This will always be a endless debate with no ending, even more so when Dark Knight becomes playable. I have already chosen what tank class I prefer, but personally OP just play the tank that is most fun for you.

Also wanted to leave this here, since several people accidentally misinformed others about this skill. (Rage of Halone does 10% str debuff) not 5%. It gets traited to 10% at lvl40 on GLD.

There's nothing wrong with a civilized debate. No insults have been thrown (yet). I just jumped in after he said that foresight was better than rampart although that was cleared up. I play both tanks and in nearly all my setups (with the exception of T12), I'm delegated to either MT or OT respectively based on what class I am or who the other tank is, and in the end just works out better.

[Izsha]

No, i didn't ignore bulwark. I've talked about it a few times now. And your block rate is is really closer to 30%. The rate/10+10 is an easy estimate. The actual number is 1 block is 0.00086. Or 10=0.86% instead of 1%. No tower or kite shield has a 100% black rate under bulwark so if that is what you are depending on for a 1 hit phy tank buster you are gambling with a wipe. It's a great cd for multi hits, or general mitigation for, say, adds. But for single hit moves it is a last resort (let alone magic attakcs). My post was explicitly about big tank busters and effective hp, so yes I discounted bulwark and made a note about it to show I didn't forget it. It's situational. Raven claw? Great(phy multi hit). Akh morn? Useless (magic).

I've said repeatedly that pld has superior mitigation for steady incoming damage due to their shield (shiva ex being the best example. No real tank busters just high fast auto attacks) while wars excel at predictable, frequent tank busters via IB because it's a rampart on a 20 sec CD.

As for pld pulling threat as off tank, it's not a problem if the or is a nin for slashing allowing the war to path butcher butchers rotation, or its weak content and war can eye butch butch. No its not possible to keep threat lead on equal geared pld if the war is trying to do all 3 combos. Put your nin to work :]

Pld doing 123 in sword oath generates 727 pot per gcd in threat.
War doing path butch butch and 1 IB per cycle in defiance generates 1002 enmity per gcd. (955 if using fracture).

Just on the face of it equally geared tanks the war has a substantial 38% enmity lead (thanks maim!). 150%ish stronger auto attacks don't make up for 120% maimed auto attacks under defiance. Circle of scorn isn't going to kill that nearly 40% enmity lead on war. Unchained+zerk have similar boost as fight of flight over time, but war can adjust combo to squeeze in an extra butchers instead of path while that's up to gain an enmity edge when factoring atk buffs.

A full vit war will struggle vs full str pld ot. But that's why I said similarly geared. War in combination melded/slaying can fend off a str pld OT pretty handily and keep path up about 80 to 90% of the time and let the nin maintain slashing. It works pretty well, just be cautious immediately after a tank swap and its all gravy (dat crit rng after tank swaps is always fun lol).

tldr: similarly geared and skilled wars can mt vs str sword oath pld without loosing threat. Trouble is war in all these scenarios requires a bit more finesse to manage, and Joe schmoe in DF probably isn't pulling it off. But that doesn't mean the class isn't capable of all these things.