PLD any better than WAR?

[Chihaya]

-ot pld stuff-

Yea PLD dps is high as OT but that 1-2-3 still generate massive hate even on sword oath especially if using str accessories.
Don't think WAR MT will have the leisure of keeping up both storms eye/path without losing hate.
As for defensive buffs on WAR, I agree with you but that is in need of a lot of good timing on that inner beast which I really only seen career WARs do. It is much easier to keep the PLD CD rotation.

I haven't done FCOB too much yet but when T9 had low/no echo - it was definitely easier for me to heal a PLD vs a WAR through all the ravensbeaks and bahamut's favors

[Shori]

My two-cents is you NEED both if you're to play WAR particularly for flash and provoke, but PLD does not neccessarily need bloodbath/WAR skills if the healer is alive - just prefered.
I find WAR much more fun to play however and offers you just as much fun in solo as in a party.

[Izsha]

So sick of all the dumb misinformation being passed off as fact.

Foresight isn't junk. Pld CD suite isn't some pillar of awesomeness taking a dump on war.

130 leftside gear give pld and war 794 physical and magic def. According to dancing mad site formula That reduces all damage taken by 33.9%.

Protect (20% def) brings def to 953. All damage now reduced by 40.92%.

Foresight+protect is 1112 def (done additively with protect) Damage reduced by 47.9%.

So:
Monster hits for 100 damage.
Naked no buff char takes 100 damage. Ouch.
130 leftside tank hit for 66 damage.
Tank with protect hit for 59 damage.
Protect and foresight hit for 52 damage.

Foresight reduces all damage by 6.98% (7%) damage. But that is 7% of the PRE defense damage. Considering gear and protect are essentially a given, you are really only taking 59% damage to start. 100 damage really is 59 taken after gear and pro. So the relative damage reduction is actually 59 incoming vs 52 taken with foresight. That's a 13.4% damage reduction.

Foresight is a 13.4% damage reduction in i130 with protect for TWENTY seconds. With war trait for 90 sec recast, it is pretty much an Avg mitigation ability in the game after IB, rampart, and vengence, but before hallowed and sentinel.(if spammed as available)

Stop saying foresight sucks. It's not the often (and wrong) quoted 5ish% reduction. It's 13.4% and will get even better as more def is added from Lv 50 to 60 (unless they change defense formula).

You know what the top mitigating skills are in the game factoring in duration and recast? Foresight beats sentinal and hallowed. It's smack middle of the pack

#1. IIB. 20% reduction. 6 sec duration. 21 sec avg recast. 5.71% avg damage mitigation if spammed. (Ignores skills peed gear. Ignores infuriate. Ignores zerk and vengence giving extra stacks).

#2. Rampart. 20% reduc. 29 sec dur. 90 sec recast. 4.44% avg damage mitigation.

#3. Vengence. 30% reduc. 15 sec dur. 120 sec recast. 3.75% avg damage mitigation.

#4. War trait ed foresight. 13.4% reduc. 20 sec dur. 90 recast. 2.98% avg (phy) damage mitigation.

Also tank stances are functionally identical. Both have exact same effective HP. It takes the exact same damage to 1 shot an 8k shield oath old as a 10k hp war in defiance. Wars need 4% more heals than plds l which is generally made up for by wars superior self heals. Tank stances are virtually identical.

The tanks are currently exceptionally balanced. More so than any other game I've ever played. But you have to stop writing off skills as junk that aren't to see it.

[RiceisNice]

...

Doesn't rampart have the same recast and duration as foresight, on top of it reducing overall damage after defense calculations? In your example you have the tank with protect taking 59 damage, -20% and they take 41 damage in total.

Don't forget that paladin has blocking as well. As random as it is, it's still an extra layer of overall mitigation.

Then you factor in the healers; they both heal differently depending on the tank whether if its to synergize with paladin's better mitigation (scholar shields and lower healing output) or warriors higher hp pool (stink skin and lustrate).

I would not say they are equals as far as capability, but it doesn't matter for 4 man content or the like. It's very evident when you're pushing content or doing coil however. Having a double paladin setup makes no storm's path to mitigate damage, having double warrior cuts down on available cooldown stacking, 10% halone debuff and utility from cover.

[Ashkendor]

Yea PLD dps is high as OT but that 1-2-3 still generate massive hate even on sword oath especially if using str accessories.
Don't think WAR MT will have the leisure of keeping up both storms eye/path without losing hate.

This. A warrior that isn't using his hate combo won't keep hate off a paladin OT going full bore.

If the warrior can't use his debuffs, why bother having a warrior?

#3. War trait ed foresight. 13.4% reduc. 20 sec dur. 120 recast. 2.98% avg (phy) damage mitigation. .

Rampart is a 90 second recast, 20 second duration, and reduces 20% on both physical and magical.

How is Foresight better?

EDIT: Wait, Foresight is a 90 second recast too with the warrior trait. I still don't see how it's better, though.

[Izsha]

This. A warrior that isn't using his hate combo won't keep hate off a paladin OT going full bore.

If the warrior can't use his debuffs, why bother having a warrior?



Rampart is a 90 second recast, 20 second duration, and reduces 20% on both physical and magical.

How is Foresight better?

EDIT: Wait, Foresight is a 90 second recast too with the warrior trait. I still don't see how it's better, though.

I just typo-d the 120. Was thinking about pld. Edited. Also went full derp mode and forgot to use the trait ed 20% rampart instead of the 10. Also edited. Now that 8ve had my coffee lol.

Plds abilities have higher potency, but the short durations and long recast really hurt. Plds regularly have to eat tank buster with 0 cooldowns because they just run out on long fights. T5 at i90 they had to eat some death sentences with no buffs. T9 they had to eat some beaks I'm 1st phases naked and claws in last phase naked. War never has that problem. Ever.

T13 with 5 akh morn (before echo) there are 5 akh morn to wat. 1 is holmganged. 1 is hallowed. 3 are eaten with buffs. Pld has to choose which one to sentinal. War just pops their entire suite for each akh because they are 2:15 apart and every war ability is 2 min or less.

The frequency you can use a skill is a BIG deal. The toolkits are very, very similar. All war abilities are 90 sec to 2 min recast save holmgang and that's only 3 min. Infuriate is 1 min. Sentinel is 3 minutes and only lasts for 10 measly sec. I'll keep my vengence that lasts 50% longer and comes up 33% faster thank you very much.

There is more to the tanking picture than just the %mitigated listed on a skill. In long fights recast and durations are a big frigging deal.

[RiceisNice]

...

If we're talking long, drawned out fights, paladins would still win out on damage prevention/overall healing needed because of blocking outside of tank busters. If we're talking with something like Akh Morn in mind, they'd have more than enough cooldowns to be comparable to warrior's uptime.

All things considered if you have foresight, rampart, sentinel and you're running into problems with running out of CDs for tank busters like critical rip or raven's beak, theres something wrong with either cooldown management or dps not being able to push that phase.

[Ashkendor]

Plds abilities have higher potency, but the short durations and long recast really hurt. Plds regularly have to eat tank buster with 0 cooldowns because they just run out on long fights. T5 at i90 they had to eat some death sentences with no buffs. T9 they had to eat some beaks I'm 1st phases naked and claws in last phase naked. War never has that problem. Ever.

T13 with 5 akh morn (before echo) there are 5 akh morn to wat. 1 is holmganged. 1 is hallowed. 3 are eaten with buffs. Pld has to choose which one to sentinal. War just pops their entire suite for each akh because they are 2:15 apart and every war ability is 2 min or less.

I never have a problem with having to eat tankbusters unmitigated unless DPS aren't pushing phases.

That's a completely separate issue altogether.

You're also forgetting Bulwark, which is awesome for multi-hit physical skills like Bahamut's Claw.

[Ditto]

Plds abilities have higher potency, but the short durations and long recast really hurt. Plds regularly have to eat tank buster with 0 cooldowns because they just run out on long fights. T5 at i90 they had to eat some death sentences with no buffs. T9 they had to eat some beaks I'm 1st phases naked and claws in last phase naked. War never has that problem. Ever.

T13 with 5 akh morn (before echo) there are 5 akh morn to wat. 1 is holmganged. 1 is hallowed. 3 are eaten with buffs. Pld has to choose which one to sentinal. War just pops their entire suite for each akh because they are 2:15 apart and every war ability is 2 min or less.

The frequency you can use a skill is a BIG deal. The toolkits are very, very similar. All war abilities are 90 sec to 2 min recast save holmgang and that's only 3 min. Infuriate is 1 min. Sentinel is 3 minutes and only lasts for 10 measly sec. I'll keep my vengence that lasts 50% longer and comes up 33% faster thank you very much.

... lol wat

[Izsha]

If we're talking long, drawned out fights, paladins would still win out on damage prevention/overall healing needed because of blocking outside of tank busters. If we're talking with something like Akh Morn in mind, they'd have more than enough cooldowns to be comparable to warrior's uptime.

All things considered if you have foresight, rampart, sentinel and you're running into problems with running out of CDs for tank busters like critical rip or raven's beak, theres something wrong with either cooldown management or dps not being able to push that phase.

My fight specific comments are based on the fights when they were new and progression. Not doing t5 in i130 with 20% echo. In any fight with regular scary tank busters, once you can usually do ramp, sentinal, ramp, then stuck like chuck praying to the bulwark god for the 4th as far as direct mitigation, or a combination of foresight and convalescence. If bulwark fails you in t5 when you're ilvl 80ish, you are in trouble. Sure the sentinal one was a stoll in the park, but the for sight only one is skirting with a wipe.

War gets a free rampart for every tank buster that ever happens with ib, and every other cd is 2 min or less. Pld is often left wide open during progression. With IB as a given in concert with the weaker CDs war has, it creates a substantial effective hp effect.

IB+tob. +50% effective hp.
IB+foresight. +44% effective hp.
ib+vengence. +78% effective hp.


Ramp. +25% effective hp.
foresight. +15% effective hp.
Sentinel. +66.6% effective hp.

math people. It's your friend.

War can survive bigger hits and repeat that every 2 min. Plds tank buster suite is actually weaker and comes up slower. Those listed are the only direct mitigation abilities. (Both tank stances offer the same effective hp so no, shield oath ddoesn't change any of this vs defiance). The only boon pld has is mixing in bulwark but that's always a gamble and only vs blockable attacks.

War is the undisputed king of eating tank busters because if inner beast. Pld excels at prolonged sustained damage because of their shield. Fights like shiva that crank out continuous high, physical damage favor plds. But fights with large, predictable, and frequent tank busters favor war (like t9 when introduced).

If you are only tanking fights after they have echo and out gear content via ilvl, then it doesn't make a lick of difference what you tank as. But when you are fighting stuff you can't just overpower with phase changing dps and gear, those aforementioned factors become an issue.