PLD any better than WAR?

[Ceodore]

Let's go through the list here.

A warrior 'cooldowns' consist of three major skills. Thrill of Battle, Bloodbath and Vengeance. The latter, a 30% DR skill actually has a longer recharge time than the equivalent Paladin skill, Rampart (90s for Rampart, 120s for Vengeance). Bloodbath is beneficial when tanking larger groups, but overall it's HP gain isn't making up much lost ground. ToB is essentially just a self-heal.

You're missing Foresight in this list too, which has an equivalent CD as Rampart. Yes, it doesn't increase magic defense, but it also has the added benefit for scaling with your defense stat, meaning that its potency goes up as your stat increases. Rampart will always be a simple flat 20% damage reduction from damage you are taking. This means that its potency is calculated after your defense already reduces the damage, resulting in a diminishing return as defense increases. I would compare Vengeance more to Sentinel than Rampart, but for shits and giggles, let's compare it to both. Vengeance has a longer CD than Rampart, and a shorter duration, however, it also has a higher potency than Rampart (30%) so no, it's not an equivalent skill at all. Vengeance has a lower CD than Sentinel, and a lower Potency, but a longer Duration. The difference essentially is that neither Rampart nor Sentinel are actually significantly better than Vengeance. They really equal out with only minor differences between the skills. Vengeance is really more like the middle ground between Rampart and Sentinel. However, Vengeance has the added bonus of causing damage back to melee attackers. This is where Bloodbath comes in to make Vengeance shine above the rest. That damage caused by Vengeance also triggers Bloodbath, meaning that as you take melee damage, you also recover hp equal to 25% of the damage done by Vengeance. Then, we have Overpower for more AOE damage to recover more HP, then we have Steel Cyclone for even more AOE damage for even more HP recovery. Combine Unchained and Berserk with those AOE damaging skills under Bloodbath, and you have even more HP recovery, as the amount of HP you recover from Bloodbath is % based, not potency or flat. Also, you drastically underestimate the worth of Thrill of Battle. Again, effect is % based, so it scales higher with higher gear, and it even increases with Defiance, as the amount is based on your HP pool after Defiance. 20% hp on a 12k HP warrior is 2.4k, worth more than most cures.

Unchained doesn't have any mitigation benefits, and Infuriate is just a means to regenerate wrath for GCD skills. Their other skills aren't really cooldowns since they're on the GCD and reliant on either Infuriate (such as Inner Beast) or mob HP (such as Mercy Stroke).

While not mitigating damage, HP recovery means less work on your healer to recover your hp. It means you are a more self sustaining system. Unchained and Berserk should not be used so liberally unless you are off tanking, and even then, they should be used in conjunction with skills like Bloodbath and Inner Beast for more bang.

Other CDs are borrowed largely from Paladin and Monk. Let's also remember that Paladin has a permanent 20% DR from Shield Oath, so mitigation wise the PLD will always win. Further on the note of mitigation, Paladin can also mitigate damage dealt to party members by using Cover, giving it a significant edge over Warrior.

Paladin can mitigate Melee damage done to a party member, so the usage of Cover is very limited. While Holmgang won't mitigate damage to a party member, its capability to keep a mob on you, and away from your healer can not be ignored. Of the fights that come to mind, the Giant Bavarois in Wanderer's Palace is the most prevalent, as Cover and Holmgang here have the same desired effect. While Cover allows you to keep the target from taking damage from Flail, Holmgang will keep the boss from moving to the target, protecting them from Flail as well. I have also confirmed that this works. They both have varying degrees of application, of course, but in many cases, their effects are entirely similar. Also, to say that many of the CDs are drawn from cross class skills is like being a snotty kid saying "These are my toys and I don't like you playing with them". The fact is, Warriors take these cross class skills and can use them with other skills for better effect. (Convalescence+Second Wind, Second Wind if potency based, meaning it is effected by Convalescence. Convalescence is also boosted by Defiance) Also, that Shield Oath Paladins are so proud of is the central reason why their major cooldowns lose effectiveness. Stacking Damage Reduction skills results in loss of potency between the skills. It's a fundamental flaw. Defiance doesn't have this issue, and in fact, it has an opposite effect on skills such as Convalescence, increasing its effectiveness.

Warrior is not about preventing damage. It's about soaking it up and dishing it back out. It has a single DR skill (unless you count Holmgang, I don't since you'd need to be mostly dead before you'd see a benefit). Storms path would be a great skill if it was AoE, but since it's single target it's unwieldy to try and use it on trash.

Of course you wouldn't use Storm's Path on trash, to try to hit 9 or 10 mobs with it would be pointless. Warriors have plenty more much stronger and more potent cooldowns for this situation, which have quick recovery times. It's for boss fights. Paladin has Rage of Halone, sure, but Storm's Path is actually stronger, because instead of just 5% of strength, you're completely reducing the boss' damage out put by 10%. And no Warrior should have trouble with agro on a boss fight even throwing in Storm's Path in their rotation.

I'm not saying it can't tank. Far from it. But from the perspective of a player, Paladin is simply better at it. It's a defender, and a protector. Warrior is just a meat shield with a big axe.

Neither class is actually better. Both have different capabilities which balance out. Paladin has Shield Oath, sure, but Shield Oath also causes many of its important cooldowns to become worth less. My biggest point was this. Warriors synergize much better than Paladins. None of their cooldowns or skills make any of their other cooldowns or skills weaker or worth less. Many of them infact make other cooldowns and skills worth exponentially more. Paladins on the other hand drastically fail in this concept, or fall short of what Warriors can do with these skills. Bloodbath is in fact, amazing, when used correctly. To knock it (as I have before in the past when I was a young, inexperienced Warrior) just shows a lack of understanding.

I'd like to add another thing. Warriors for the most part on boss battles try to stick to using their Wrath and Wrath generating skills on boss battles and try to save their big 'cooldowns' for large trash pulls where they will be most effective. Inner Beast is superb for reducing damage from big spike hits, and Storm's Path is excellent to keep up to both heal some damage and reduce the damage coming in.

PLD more tanky, WAR faster aggro. So usually PLD is the better mt and war the better ot

Umm, no. Paladin generally gets placed in the MT role because as an OT, they bring very little worthwhile skills to the table compared to Warriors. As an OT warrior, keeping up Storm's Path and Storm's Eye (so Ninjas can focus more on straight out damage) is excellent. So Warriors get placed in the role of OT just because Paladins are lacking in that role, not because Paladins are simply better MTs. As an MT Warrior, keeping up Storm's Path for damage in reduction is excellent. In fact, to give a good comparison, Warriors are a lot like White Mages. In a majority of fights, having two White Mages is just fine, since their skills stack so well with one another, but having two scholars usually means one is constantly over writing the other's shields. With Warriors, having two in a fight causes no draw back in DPS and even has no draw back with survivability, and in fact, increases dps over a 1 Paladin, 1 Warrior set up. But a 2 Paladin party loses DPS without Storm's Eye. It is even easy to see how Warriors can bring the same durability to the table as a Paladin when MT. With a flat 10% damage reduction from the boss and a healing in increase of 20%, it's all too easy. If you want to get technical, sure, just using the toggle skills, Paladin's Shield Oath will always beat Defiance, but if a tank is just using their toggle skills, then they are a bad tank, no matter which class they are on. Warrior simply has more indepth and versatile combinations that work well together, where Paladins often lose effectiveness on their cooldowns because of Shield Oath.

Also, the whole Holmgang vs Hallowed Ground thing is pointless. If you come to the point where you must pop Hallowed Ground then chances are, things are screwing up. Holmgang in fact has more applications with a lower CD. Most notably is T10, where you can avoid having to tank swap when you are inflicted with Vuln Up by holmganging at the correct time for the Wild Charge. You can both eat the Charge and the Crackle Hiss with Vuln Up on you and still be sitting pretty. Word of advice for that situation, have Inner Beast ready as well as Convalescence and Second Wind combination and Thrill of Battle for after the Hiss to help with padding your HP for anything unforeseen and to keep your healers from having a heart attack.

Again, I love Paladin, it's my main, I'll never get rid of it or abandon it or tire of it, but I will also recognize its faults as well as the strengths of the other tank class, and ignorance towards either one's skills and capabilities is unbecoming of any tank.