PLD any better than WAR?

[RiceisNice]

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Doesn't rampart have the same recast and duration as foresight, on top of it reducing overall damage after defense calculations? In your example you have the tank with protect taking 59 damage, -20% and they take 41 damage in total.

Don't forget that paladin has blocking as well. As random as it is, it's still an extra layer of overall mitigation.

Then you factor in the healers; they both heal differently depending on the tank whether if its to synergize with paladin's better mitigation (scholar shields and lower healing output) or warriors higher hp pool (stink skin and lustrate).

I would not say they are equals as far as capability, but it doesn't matter for 4 man content or the like. It's very evident when you're pushing content or doing coil however. Having a double paladin setup makes no storm's path to mitigate damage, having double warrior cuts down on available cooldown stacking, 10% halone debuff and utility from cover.

[Ashkendor]

Yea PLD dps is high as OT but that 1-2-3 still generate massive hate even on sword oath especially if using str accessories.
Don't think WAR MT will have the leisure of keeping up both storms eye/path without losing hate.

This. A warrior that isn't using his hate combo won't keep hate off a paladin OT going full bore.

If the warrior can't use his debuffs, why bother having a warrior?

#3. War trait ed foresight. 13.4% reduc. 20 sec dur. 120 recast. 2.98% avg (phy) damage mitigation. .

Rampart is a 90 second recast, 20 second duration, and reduces 20% on both physical and magical.

How is Foresight better?

EDIT: Wait, Foresight is a 90 second recast too with the warrior trait. I still don't see how it's better, though.

[Izsha]

This. A warrior that isn't using his hate combo won't keep hate off a paladin OT going full bore.

If the warrior can't use his debuffs, why bother having a warrior?



Rampart is a 90 second recast, 20 second duration, and reduces 20% on both physical and magical.

How is Foresight better?

EDIT: Wait, Foresight is a 90 second recast too with the warrior trait. I still don't see how it's better, though.

I just typo-d the 120. Was thinking about pld. Edited. Also went full derp mode and forgot to use the trait ed 20% rampart instead of the 10. Also edited. Now that 8ve had my coffee lol.

Plds abilities have higher potency, but the short durations and long recast really hurt. Plds regularly have to eat tank buster with 0 cooldowns because they just run out on long fights. T5 at i90 they had to eat some death sentences with no buffs. T9 they had to eat some beaks I'm 1st phases naked and claws in last phase naked. War never has that problem. Ever.

T13 with 5 akh morn (before echo) there are 5 akh morn to wat. 1 is holmganged. 1 is hallowed. 3 are eaten with buffs. Pld has to choose which one to sentinal. War just pops their entire suite for each akh because they are 2:15 apart and every war ability is 2 min or less.

The frequency you can use a skill is a BIG deal. The toolkits are very, very similar. All war abilities are 90 sec to 2 min recast save holmgang and that's only 3 min. Infuriate is 1 min. Sentinel is 3 minutes and only lasts for 10 measly sec. I'll keep my vengence that lasts 50% longer and comes up 33% faster thank you very much.

There is more to the tanking picture than just the %mitigated listed on a skill. In long fights recast and durations are a big frigging deal.

[RiceisNice]

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If we're talking long, drawned out fights, paladins would still win out on damage prevention/overall healing needed because of blocking outside of tank busters. If we're talking with something like Akh Morn in mind, they'd have more than enough cooldowns to be comparable to warrior's uptime.

All things considered if you have foresight, rampart, sentinel and you're running into problems with running out of CDs for tank busters like critical rip or raven's beak, theres something wrong with either cooldown management or dps not being able to push that phase.

[Izsha]

If we're talking long, drawned out fights, paladins would still win out on damage prevention/overall healing needed because of blocking outside of tank busters. If we're talking with something like Akh Morn in mind, they'd have more than enough cooldowns to be comparable to warrior's uptime.

All things considered if you have foresight, rampart, sentinel and you're running into problems with running out of CDs for tank busters like critical rip or raven's beak, theres something wrong with either cooldown management or dps not being able to push that phase.

My fight specific comments are based on the fights when they were new and progression. Not doing t5 in i130 with 20% echo. In any fight with regular scary tank busters, once you can usually do ramp, sentinal, ramp, then stuck like chuck praying to the bulwark god for the 4th as far as direct mitigation, or a combination of foresight and convalescence. If bulwark fails you in t5 when you're ilvl 80ish, you are in trouble. Sure the sentinal one was a stoll in the park, but the for sight only one is skirting with a wipe.

War gets a free rampart for every tank buster that ever happens with ib, and every other cd is 2 min or less. Pld is often left wide open during progression. With IB as a given in concert with the weaker CDs war has, it creates a substantial effective hp effect.

IB+tob. +50% effective hp.
IB+foresight. +44% effective hp.
ib+vengence. +78% effective hp.


Ramp. +25% effective hp.
foresight. +15% effective hp.
Sentinel. +66.6% effective hp.

math people. It's your friend.

War can survive bigger hits and repeat that every 2 min. Plds tank buster suite is actually weaker and comes up slower. Those listed are the only direct mitigation abilities. (Both tank stances offer the same effective hp so no, shield oath ddoesn't change any of this vs defiance). The only boon pld has is mixing in bulwark but that's always a gamble and only vs blockable attacks.

War is the undisputed king of eating tank busters because if inner beast. Pld excels at prolonged sustained damage because of their shield. Fights like shiva that crank out continuous high, physical damage favor plds. But fights with large, predictable, and frequent tank busters favor war (like t9 when introduced).

If you are only tanking fights after they have echo and out gear content via ilvl, then it doesn't make a lick of difference what you tank as. But when you are fighting stuff you can't just overpower with phase changing dps and gear, those aforementioned factors become an issue.

[Ashkendor]

Plds abilities have higher potency, but the short durations and long recast really hurt. Plds regularly have to eat tank buster with 0 cooldowns because they just run out on long fights. T5 at i90 they had to eat some death sentences with no buffs. T9 they had to eat some beaks I'm 1st phases naked and claws in last phase naked. War never has that problem. Ever.

T13 with 5 akh morn (before echo) there are 5 akh morn to wat. 1 is holmganged. 1 is hallowed. 3 are eaten with buffs. Pld has to choose which one to sentinal. War just pops their entire suite for each akh because they are 2:15 apart and every war ability is 2 min or less.

I never have a problem with having to eat tankbusters unmitigated unless DPS aren't pushing phases.

That's a completely separate issue altogether.

You're also forgetting Bulwark, which is awesome for multi-hit physical skills like Bahamut's Claw.

[Ditto]

Plds abilities have higher potency, but the short durations and long recast really hurt. Plds regularly have to eat tank buster with 0 cooldowns because they just run out on long fights. T5 at i90 they had to eat some death sentences with no buffs. T9 they had to eat some beaks I'm 1st phases naked and claws in last phase naked. War never has that problem. Ever.

T13 with 5 akh morn (before echo) there are 5 akh morn to wat. 1 is holmganged. 1 is hallowed. 3 are eaten with buffs. Pld has to choose which one to sentinal. War just pops their entire suite for each akh because they are 2:15 apart and every war ability is 2 min or less.

The frequency you can use a skill is a BIG deal. The toolkits are very, very similar. All war abilities are 90 sec to 2 min recast save holmgang and that's only 3 min. Infuriate is 1 min. Sentinel is 3 minutes and only lasts for 10 measly sec. I'll keep my vengence that lasts 50% longer and comes up 33% faster thank you very much.

... lol wat

[Purrfectstorm]

WARs have two resources for big pulls (TP and MP). PLD only have one.
WARs run out of TP fast on big pulls. PLD run out of TP more on bosses.
WAR have no way of recovering resources. PLD have Riot Blade combo to recover MP.
WAR can mitigate big hits better. PLD can mitigate lots of smaller hits better.
WAR have a unique debuff (Storm's Path). PLD have a unique debuff (Rage of Halone).
WAR tank stance is not on GCD but you lose HP if you drop it. PLD tank stance is on GCD and you lose MP if you switch.
WAR can shut off tank stance damage reduction (Unchained). PLD can't shut off tank stance damage reduction.
WAR have an off GCD stun to easily stop specific abilities. PLD have a GCD stun to easily stun lock certain mobs.
WAR cannot silence a mob. PLD can silence a mob.
WAR cannot cover an ally. PLD can cover an ally.
WAR cannot Stoneskin self or others during downtime. PLD can Stoneskin self or others during downtime.
WAR can pull enemies closer and bind them (Holmgang). PLD can break heavy and bind and prevent knockback (Tempered Will).
WAR emergency button (Holmgang) saves you but you will need major healing. PLD emergency button (Hallowed Ground) saves you and you won't even take damage.

Both tanks are very good. Some argue WAR is more fun because you are not spamming 1-2-3. However, your rotation really is not much more complex: occasional Inner Beast, refresh Maim with Storm's Eye or Storm's Path combo. PLD has more general utility (back when silencing ADS was a thing, for example) and you have more skills to directly aid the team (Cover and Stoneskin).

I'm not an endgame expert but I play both tanks all the time and both have fights they are better suited for. In fights that require 2 tanks, I think I'd almost always bring 1 of each.

[Isius]

So the great debate of which FFXIV tank is better continues yet again. This will always be a endless debate with no ending, even more so when Dark Knight becomes playable. I have already chosen what tank class I prefer, but personally OP just play the tank that is most fun for you.

Also wanted to leave this here, since several people accidentally misinformed others about this skill. (Rage of Halone does 10% str debuff) not 5%. It gets traited to 10% at lvl40 on GLD.

[Shougun]

Imo, SE did a great job capturing their themes.

As a Paladin you can really feel like a team player (bit of the "safe bet"), I've on many occasions saved wipes by giving that healer that extra few hundred hp (stoneskin generally > cure) or even stopping DD from weakness stacking. Cover making you feel like a real best friend's tank, placing it on your lala healer and then knowing they see you 'covering' them so they start to hug your leg - it also makes prioritizing weird aggro really calm as you can cover a threat generator and organize your pile. Hallowedground also makes you feel boss - 0 damage.. 0 - and your healers can drop healing for 10 seconds and pump out a few holys (or gasp for breath). Shields procing many times a fight and then bulwark and lol everything is reduced by a bit, while giving you an incredibly cheap attack it also allows you to shutdown most generic skills. Stun locking monsters and mechanics like no one else can. Need an emergency silence? The combos are easier imo, but it lets you think of other things like being a support or of course very importantly when to schedule that defense cooldown during more important fights.

As I haven't played Warrior as much (is 50) I'll just leave it that it felt and appears that they're the mad man(woman) who laughs and kills at the same time, while yelling nope right when someone thought they had the uppperhand (many self cures and things like vengeance + blood bath). It is appealing and I had a lot of fun, but when I wanted to put myself in the mindset as the protector rather than the berzerker I wanted to play Paladin (but both can tank!).

If I were to min max and everyone was doing their job very well I might start to lean more towards Warrior, but /imo/ running DF as Paladin feels like playing Sam right before Frodo tries to rage quit.