rouge

[KikoriL]

Once upon a time ago I had a similar theory about THM + cooldowns possibly being better than BLM. Dead wrong.
Marauder currently remains the only job that can viably drop its job crystal in place of a wider cross-class selection, and that's due to the mechanics of Warrior. A DPS-focused Warrior is, for all intents and purposes, a Marauder with +10 STR and less cross class skills available because of the job crystal. 10 STR for Blood for Blood, Straight Shot, Raging Strikes, and maybe Venomous Bite is respectable trade.
No other job in the game can successfully do this kind of trade while still keeping its ability to perform its role.

[Zamii]

Once upon a time ago I had a similar theory about THM + cooldowns possibly being better than BLM. Dead wrong.
Marauder currently remains the only job that can viably drop its job crystal in place of a wider cross-class selection, and that's due to the mechanics of Warrior. A DPS-focused Warrior is, for all intents and purposes, a Marauder with +10 STR and less cross class skills available because of the job crystal. 10 STR for Blood for Blood, Straight Shot, Raging Strikes, and maybe Venomous Bite is respectable trade.
No other job in the game can successfully do this kind of trade while still keeping its ability to perform its role.

just to point this out, Warrior marauder still cant pull it off successfully, at best its equal to its counterpart class in terms of dps, but it will never be able to beat warrior in terms of tanking ability, which means it cannot perform its roll.

[Alistaire]

Did some testing on this myself. I'm not the best ninja in the world but I generally know the rotations.

My ninja pulled off 397 dps over 10 mins.

My rogue pulled off 345 over 10 mins. Cross classes used were raging strikes, hawk's eye, blood for blood, internal release, straight shot, fracture, venomous bite, mercy stroke, invigorate and second wind.

Rogue's opener did much higher burst damage than ninjas but it's sustained damage is low.

1 Fracture on non-war is pretty bad. nin's 123 combo averages 233.33 potency per hit with each hit being either 50 or 60 TP. And all of that gets boosted by slashing debuff. fracture is 220 potency where 120 of it isn't boosted by the debuff. for 80 tp.
2 You parsed yourself on a dummy using mercy stroke? Bad form. I wouldn't rule out its benefit completely but for a parse it's invalid.
3 venomous bite is also bad. worse than fracture. it's 205 potency where 105 of it isn't boosted by the debuff...for 80 tp.
4 so the only benefits you're left with are hawk's eye, raging strikes, and straight shot, which would also be kinda questionable. (eye for an eye would be an extra help to the party too)

Let's be generous and say you get 8 moves for each application of the straight shot buff. 10% chance of 50% more damage = 5% boost. best possible spot would be straight shot > SF combo > mutilate > AE combo > first 2 of next AE combo. 1970 base potency there so a boost of 98.5. So a 70 tp move that does 140 potency and boosts your next moves on average to the point where straight shot is giving you 238.5 potency (140+ the average boost). So a measely 5 potency (average given ideal situations) for extra tp drain. I guess maybe rogue maintains tp well. In any case if you ended up with only 7 moves with the buff for any reason (dodging, phase change etc) it's a dps loss.

So in some ways your rogue dps should have ended up higher if you didn't use half the crossclasses you chose... but with what you chose it kinda hurts your credibility. What's that thing called where results are biased if the tester wants a certain conclusion to be reached? Anyway, if I get that bored I may run a test later. (edit: just tested at least to see the # of moves boosted by straight shot buff, it is 8 @ 411 skill speed. would become 9 at some breaking point but lol @ stacking speed for that)

But it'd all pretty much be irrelevant due to the trick attack thing.

Best reason to go rogue is if you're going to set provoke and perfect dodge some tank killer move. If you manage a strat involving that that turns some mandatory-tankswap fight into something solo tanked that would be pretty cool.

[Zamii]

even at 7 attacks per strait shot it would remain a dps increase, your forgetting auto attacks and they are not negligible.

as for the provoke + perfect dodge thing, best use for that i can think of would be t12, the revelation would line up perfectly with perfect dodge, although to be honest perfect dodge can be cross classes so even then i wouldnt use rogue for that particular purpose, especially given that a tank using str accessories will do more dps.

[Alistaire]

Alright, so auto attacks would push it into the "barely good" category if you don't run into tp problems keeping it up. And yeah they're not negligible but if the increase to gcd moves ends up in single digits then the boost to auto-attacks would be even less...

idk about the rest, you're saying an equally geared mrd would outparse a rogue? I kinda doubt that, and rogue still has some benefits like full-strength goad. There's potentially a place, in theory, for a mrd or rog to perfect dodge a tank swap situation into a non-issue but that's not really the point. Point of what I was saying was just finishing the sentence "the only reason to go rogue is..."

[Zamii]

i wasnt saying a mrd would outparse a rogue, although to be honest it could come quite close imo, i was saying that a mrd will not outparse a warrior.
and as far as your "only reason to go rogue is.." there is none, simple fact is theres no point to going rogue when other classes (thm or acn for example) would perform the same job but at a much greater effeciencey.

[Alistaire]

What I'm saying is there would be if you could nullify the need for an offtank in a fight AND outparse said offtank. But I'm well aware that's a stretch, that's why it's not really something I'd consider worth aiming for.

As far as a mrd not outparsing a warrior, that's not what you said, even if you meant something else. I was responding to "i wouldnt use rogue for that particular purpose, especially given that a tank using str accessories will do more dps." which is a direct comparison between using a rogue in 1 party spot vs using a tank in that spot and your claim the tank "will do more dps".

[Zamii]

my bad, i thought you were reffering to my original post, which it seems i mixed my words anyway :P

[Cabalabob]

snip

You assume too much, I said I used these moves never said I put them in the rotation, I set them for lack of anything else I'd particularly want to use. Fracture and venomous bite I used in case any fight required a lot of dodging or phase swapping, the DoT damage could be effective. I parsed on a level 1 dummy so mercy stroke and assassinate never had a chance to proc.

Gear for both NIN and rogue is the same -the soul crystal, no job specific gear or relic.

[draco806]

You assume too much, I said I used these moves never said I put them in the rotation, I set them for lack of anything else I'd particularly want to use. Fracture and venomous bite I used in case any fight required a lot of dodging or phase swapping, the DoT damage could be effective. I parsed on a level 1 dummy so mercy stroke and assassinate never had a chance to proc.

Gear for both NIN and rogue is the same -the soul crystal, no job specific gear or relic.

from the test I have run. I have used invigorate, hawk's eye, straight shot, featherfoot, internal release, raging strikes, foresight, haymaker, second wind, and awareness witch I plan to change for mantra when I get that skill unlocked. I use the skills to boost my dps up for a bit but I also have gear focused on skill speed. my skill speed is at 466 with attack power of 514