Answers About the Archons

[Fenral]

Thanks for the amazingly in-depth response, as always, Moose. We read the same wikis, or maybe I've just been following your loremonger trail longer than I thought. I'll be back with screenshots of my own later, but for now:

Ramnbroes was formerly of the Circle of Knowing back in 1.0land, or so he says, but lacks their assumed trademark on his exposed neck. Magic tattoo removal? The others seem to have kept theirs.

G'raha Tia. Just, yeah. Kid drops out of nowhere going "check out my cool tats," then peaces out before any sort of link can be established from him to our known Archons. Is he a red herring? The exception meant to show that these marks don't mean what we thought? Or have they become a sort of trend back in Sharlayan, a fashion statement worn by anyone who generally supports the cause of the Scions?

[Anonymoose]

Ramnbroes was formerly of the Circle of Knowing back in 1.0land, or so he says, but lacks their assumed trademark on his exposed neck. Magic tattoo removal? The others seem to have kept theirs.

Now that you mention it, he does confirm in ARR that he was once of the Circle. Even the way he interprets his study for the Sons is in line with the Circle's thinking - cataloging the past to protect the future. My only guess is that he wasn't high enough in the chain to bear the marks back when the marks were being handed out. The others showed up in 1562, whereas we don't meet Rammbroes until 1572. The others have been on important missions to interfere with a coming Calamity, whereas Rammbroes is just hanging out at the Gold Bazaar as a pitstop on his journey across Eorzea cataloging how important knowledge diffused across the realm and then vanished from it. He's even pretty detached from the threats Eorzea faces as a whole, preferring to stick to his scholarship (though, he's found his calling in the Allag, apparently). If my interpretations of the marks are correct, it's the most logical assumption I can think of, but I've no proof.

Kid drops out of nowhere going "check out my cool tats," then peaces out before any sort of link can be established from him to our known Archons.

Another complete shot in the dark? Our point of view as Eorzean adventurers has been on Minfilia and Louisoix's groups and we just don't get to see all of our allies. Minfilia's made a lot of connections since Louisoix's death - a lot of networking has been done and many of his allies are now ours. G'raha is of the Students of Baldesion, who had access to a lot of Sharlayan resources that Eorzeans couldn't get ahold of. Perhaps the Students had links to the original Circle, perhaps some were members before Louisoix took off (perhaps some were assigned by him to places we didn't see). G'raha strikes me as one of the youngest members, anyway, and he seems to love labels. He's got the keepers of the shelves "archon" tat, he's got the "scions" tat, he's of the Students, hanging out with the Sons, and puts a new label (NOAH) on the combination effort to explore the Crystal Tower. Strikes me as an over-achieving, exciteable kid that grows up a bit as a result of what he learns in the Tower.

I wonder what, if any, tattoos Krile will have, and Galuf, for that matter, assuming he's not dead.

[Fenral]

Minfilia's made a lot of connections since Louisoix's death - a lot of networking has been done and many of his allies are now ours.

Minfilia actually avoids mentioning G'raha by name in the one line where she does acknowledge Cid and NOAH. Either she has no reason to ever have heard of him personally, or has some reason to not want to acknowledge him. I kinda feel like G'raha would've mentioned Louisoix himself if there were any connection (if only to brag insensitively), but I also can't help but feel (professional opinion as a screenwriter) like a lot of the planned CT story (and G'raha's full character arc) ended up on the cutting room floor after LotA, so who knows?

I wonder what, if any, tattoos Krile will have, and Galuf, for that matter, assuming he's not dead.

Galuf was either X-Zoned with the Isle of Val itself or is waiting in the wings to be killed by the Primal of Nothingness, Exodus. Can't even name an airship in this series "Galuf Val" with out it dropping out of the sky.

I think Krile herself, if and when she decides to appear, will probably be an important interpersonal hub to connect the various Sharlayans we've met. She will get her chance to mourn Moen, not to mention whomever else we may lose before her arrival, and may even be the one non-CT character to be emotionally impacted by G'raha's Amy Pond gambit (which realistically needs be given some sort of fallout), especially if he's as important as he certainly seemed to think.

The answers lie Heavensward™?

[Fenral]

If my interpretations of the marks are correct, it's the most logical assumption I can think of, but I've no proof.

Turns out that being a minimum-height male Miqo'te means there are certain details that can appear in places I would never think to check. Someone much taller than I am pointed this out to me:

This ties in to the connection between Ramnbroes and G'raha, which we knew was there anyway, but incidentally leaves Moenbryda out, since I think she specifically wasn't part of the Circle. Still nothing else on that eye, though I suspect that "there are actually a lot of them, and none of them are that important on their own" will probably be the card that falls first, but nothing wrong with finding hope in the last remaining shred of doubt, right?

[Anonymoose]

Turns out that being a minimum-height male Miqo'te means there are certain details that can appear in places I would never think to check.

Pfffbwahaha. Nice find.

I don't quite understand what you mean about the rest, though. Moenbryda was quite clearly a member of the Circle of Knowing, no? Nabriales calls her such (indirectly in English), she a long-standing companionship with Urianger (Louisoix's protege), and a big part of her death dealt the resolution of how she felt that Louisoix had in some way abandoned her by going to his death unannounced. Even if the tattoo ends up referring primarily to a larger group that the Circle of Knowing had a schism with, I'm fairly confident sure she was Circle.

Likewise, now that we know Rammbroes indeed has a tattoo, it's not so strange that G'raha does. The elder, more experienced one of the two lacking it I would have found strange. Now, not so much. I'm not sure if they were Circle or part of the possible larger group, but if the case is the former, I assume they were just assigned to different areas for different reasons than the rest.

While I could make up excuses all day, though, don't forget the main reason SE gives people the Circle of Knowing tattoo: simply to let you know that someone is legit. It's an effortless way to imply a specific backstory without wasting time actually telling it.

[Fenral]

Even if the tattoo ends up referring primarily to a larger group that the Circle of Knowing had a schism with, I'm fairly confident sure she was Circle.

My understanding was that the Circle was specifically the group that came with Louisoix to Eorzea, and that Moenbryda was left out for reasons, but I had enough emotional difficulty as it is re-watching the CT scenes the once, so I'll admit I haven't gone back through 2.5 again yet.

While I could make up excuses all day, though, don't forget the main reason SE gives people the Circle of Knowing tattoo: simply to let you know that someone is legit. It's an effortless way to imply a specific backstory without wasting time actually telling it.

If that was supposed to make it hurt less, thank you for trying. (Didn't work, though I suspect I'll live.)

[Anonymoose]

My understanding was that the Circle was specifically the group that came with Louisoix to Eorzea, and that Moenbryda was left out for reasons, but I had enough emotional difficulty as it is re-watching the CT scenes the once, so I'll admit I haven't gone back through 2.5 again yet.

Dug it up just in case!

Full oft did he impress upon us that knowledge existeth to serve the greater good. This sentiment, however, was contrary to the nation's policy of neutrality, which censured intercedence in the affairs of foreign lands. In spite of vehement opposition, he founded the Circle of Knowing and journeyed hither to the heart of Eorzea. Through his noble sacrifice was the realm spared its doom. Yet this great soul, whom all should rightly have honored, was branded a pariah in his own land. His peers did accuse him of forsaking his duty as a man of learning, and of meddling in the course of history. When he left Sharlayan behind, Master Louisoix gave no word to signal his intent to Moenbryda. Close as they were, as master and disciple, she was deeply wounded by the sudden exclusion from his confidence.Above all, however, she was confused. Try as she might, she could ill comprehend her master's motive. The slanders that were heaped upon him after his passing served only to inflame the turmoil within her.For years upon end, she knew not what to believe, torn as she was 'twixt the man whom she revered, and the man who forsook her and his duty both.

This quote actually makes it very ambiguous, doesn't it? It could strongly hint that the tattoo is from an original non-Circle purpose that they were all a part of or that he formed the Circle and then left. I might have to dice my theory up a bit - that the tattoo is part of a larger meaning and the Circle did not include Moenbryda.

Something tells me I'm going to have to discard assumptions built on having seen the tattoo since 1.0... Gonna need to see with fresh eyes.

First impressions, I suspect that "record the past to read the present" is a longstanding Sharlayan thing, and that those who do so earn the tattoo. I also suspect that Louisoix's schism with tradition was that he tried to tack "read the present to write the future" onto the end of it, and that the Circle of Knowing represents that break with the nation. Because Louisoix is specifically said to have formed the Circle, but the "learn the past to understand the present" is a much older sentiment, I suspect that the tattoo =/= The Circle of Knowing.

Suspect being the key word in all of those sentences. If it is the case, it's possible that almost all of the confusion originates with Louisoix's exposition including that recording the past to understand the future was the Circle's thing, never clarifying that only the future part the Circle's alone.

Like I said, though, I can very clearly tell now that a few years worth of knowns, unknowns, and assumptions are at play in my head and blocking me from putting the pieces together cleanly and confidently. I'll need to dig it all back up and look at it anew.

If that was supposed to make it hurt less, thank you for trying.

"Hurt" is definitely the last thing I intend, more or less (though, if I had to choose, yeah, less, lol); I just mean that there may be bigger hints in the mechanic of using it than in what people actually say in the game, sometimes.

[Fenral]

I just mean that there may be bigger hints in the mechanic of using it than in what people actually say in the game, sometimes.

Oh, I fully understood the mechanic at play, but that's why it hurts. I let myself consider his role in a larger unfolding drama only to find out that he had none, so far as it goes, and not only would I never see him again (before my journey's end, after which all bets are off), I wasn't even supposed to want to, because that would mean depriving the world of some great, "irreplaceable hope."
(Tl;dr, Koh "Noah" Rabntah is a bit insensitive.)

I am highly curious as to how long we'll be teased with these incomplete pieces before getting some definite answers. My understanding was that Louisoix was a bit of an iconoclast, so he can't exactly have had a ton of followers jumping of the neutrality boat with him, but if Moenbryda is any indication, there are at least a few more out there than we've met.

G'raha's near-blank backstory is especially aggravating to me, because some definite connection to Louisoix and his atypical (dare I say, "un-Sharlayan") ideals would have been a much more reasonable (and, to me, acceptable) explanation for his actions than what we actually got: blood and destiny. But whatever he may have been, for now he's been left as just another component of the Tower.

We're slated to getting more of at least a few of our Sharlayan friends in the expansion, if perhaps only through the Echo, so we might get a clearer picture after of the whole 50-hour ordeal. Krile, please wake up.