SMN target swap - how many GCDs to break even?

[pandabearcat]

Essentially, the question is, how many GCDs does it take before setting up 3 dots is superior to just spamming ruin?

The answer is...~5 GCDs.

Math: it takes 3 GCDs to set up 3 dots. 1 dot applied at 2.5 sec, 1 dot applied at 5 sec, and Bio being applied at roughly 5.5-6 sec depending on animation delay. During that time, only Bio II gets to tick once. At the end of 3 GCDs, you will have roughly "half" a tick of time with 3 dots, so this is averaged out to (35+40+20)/2 potency.

Opportunity cost is 3 ruins, which is upfront 240 potency. We then subtract the simulated dot damage from the first 3 GCDs, then divide by the total dot potency to see how long these dots will take to equal the deficit. Turns out to be about 1.65 ticks or 5 seconds, so 2 GCDs after the 3 GCD setup.

If you can set up all 3 dots and fester, you will obviously win out...but at the cost of severe mana consumption as well as loss of potential dps (because you could've festered the boss instead, without losing the setup dps).

Another solution is to attempt different combinations of DoTs. Obviously since Miasma's contribution sucks, we will drop that first.

Bio II > Bio will overtake Ruin spam at roughly 9.4 seconds or 4 GCDs.

Pure Bio will overtake Ruin spam at roughly 6.5 seconds, or 3 GCDs.

So it takes planning, but you can find the optimal target swap rotation on small targets.

<2 GCDs, spam Ruin
3-4 GCDs, Bio > Ruin
4-5 GCDs, Bio II > Bio > Ruin
>5 GCDs, full setup

[Judge_Xero]

I would still use Bio + Miasma for shorter kills. Less MP, more damage. (Bio first since it's instant cast and can start ticking sooner and Miasma is 20 initial potency + 35 Potency Dots)

Another thing to consider is Bane VS Fester.

Like if you have more than 9 Seconds on all Dots is it better to Bane to a single mob or to just apply a couple new dots and save that Fester for the main boss.

All those decisions could be worth 1000's of damage.

[pandabearcat]

Miasma's damage contribution on initial tick simply isn't enough to overcome its tick damage loss vs Bio and Bio II, after just one tick it does less damage.

Again, fester is worth it only if the target needs to die asap, you lose overall dps using fester on a target that would die in less than a couple GCDs however.

Its pretty easy to calculate when bane is superior to fester, and that is since your dots do 95 potency a tick, and fester is (max) 300 potency, it requires ~9 target*seconds before bane is superior.

So bane > fester at

1 additional target - 4 GCDs
2 additional targets - 2 GCDs
3 additional targets - 1-2 GCDs
4 additional targets - 1 GCD

[Whiston]

Bio ii is quite potent given the entire duration of its usage, however miasma has upfront 20 potency damage with the same dot damage on a shorter duration. Would it not make more sense to use miasma over bio 2?

Im really unsure why miasmas contribution sucks.

[Judge_Xero]

Miasma is better.

I think OP thinks Miasma dot potency is only 20. Both Miasma and Bio II dot potency is 35. Miasma just does an initial 20 potency on use.

[Judge_Xero]

Combined Dot potency of BMB2 is 110

Again, fester is worth it only if the target needs to die asap, you lose overall dps using fester on a target that would die in less than a couple GCDs however.

Its pretty easy to calculate when bane is superior to fester, and that is since your dots do 110 potency a tick, and fester is (max) 300 potency, it requires 9 seconds before bane is superior.

That's easy enough. But if you factor in the potency of casting your Dots instead of Baning and then using Ruin, of which you could have saved that Aetherflow stack for an additional Fester on the boss.

I guess it's a case of comparing the Dot windup VS Bane and then factoring the 300 Potency of Fester.

(2.34 GCD)

Dots = 3 GCD (B2, M, B (Instant) and the mob can't die prior to 15s (475 Potency(Dots) + 260 (Ruin X 3 + Miasma Cast) + Fester) (1035 Potency)

VS Bane (550 Dots @ 5 ticks for 15s) (480 Ruin @ 6 casts) (1030 Potency)

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So, single target, it's pretty much always better to re-apply your dots, unless for some reason you need to Bane and then Fester, which is a huge waste.

[Whiston]

Combined Dot potency of BMB2 is 110


That's easy enough. But if you factor in the potency of casting your Dots instead of Baning and then using Ruin, of which you could have saved that Aetherflow stack for an additional Fester on the boss.

I guess it's a case of comparing the Dot windup VS Bane and then factoring the 300 Potency of Fester.

Dots = 3 GCD (B2, M, B (Instant) and the mob can't die prior to 15s (475 Potency(Dots) + 240 (Ruin X 3) + Fester) (1015 Potency)

VS Bane (550 Dots @ 5 ticks for 15s) (480 Ruin @ 6 casts) (1030 Potency)

I love to be the devil's advocate here, but in the event you have multiple targets todeal with also, using your aetherflow for bane instead of fester can also be a great contribution.
For instance, say Leviathan Orbs. It would be more efficient to dot either Levi or the orb, then bane onto the other as opposed to using fester on leviathan (or heaven forbid, on the orb), then continue to another orb (again, to bane the tail from the orb as opposed to festering the orb or the head again).


I've typed too much and I see a second edit actually showing the 15 increased potency of bane over fester given the full duration.

Additionally on the subject, regardless of add uptime, if there are 4 or more targets, it is most efficient to drop Bio2 from the adds entirely.

For an example, hourglasses in WoD, or nails in Ifrit. the most efficient use of your dots will actualyl be Misam, Bio, next target Miasma Bio, etc, returning to the original target to reapply Bio then Miasma.
I think Bio 2 is only efficient given the add lasts for longer periods, and there are no more adds to continue dealing with. There are very few of these situations in game that I can think of that this occurs where the add has a sufficient uptime window to allow your dots to run their duration without some sort of consequences, in which case Bio 2 would be applied mostly due to increased potency for whatever duration the add exists, and further to increase potency of Fester.

Edit, I noticed judge xero edited another time and I absolutely agree.

[Havenchild]

Additionally on the subject, regardless of add uptime, if there are 4 or more targets, it is most efficient to drop Bio2 from the adds entirely.

For an example, hourglasses in WoD, or nails in Ifrit. the most efficient use of your dots will actualyl be Misam, Bio, next target Miasma Bio, etc, returning to the original target to reapply Bio then Miasma.
I think Bio 2 is only efficient given the add lasts for longer periods, and there are no more adds to continue dealing with. There are very few of these situations in game that I can think of that this occurs where the add has a sufficient uptime window to allow your dots to run their duration without some sort of consequences, in which case Bio 2 would be applied mostly due to increased potency for whatever duration the add exists, and further to increase potency of Fester.

You gave a bad example. The WoD hourglasses on average will last over 9 seconds which is when Bio 2 begins to go + over a single ruin. Something that would die fast you should forgo DoTs according to the mobs HP and general speed of decline. The faster it dies, the more you forgo. Assuming 9 - 12ish seconds lifetime, you are already in the positive over Ruin Is. Panda's OP post is correct.

Using your example, Ifrit Nails which die extremely fast you would, drop Bio 2 altogether however that's more on nails your other DPS are rotating on. If you were to consider that Ifrit's nails that can be baned onto and nails your other DPS aren't currently hitting, Bio 2 should be used because unless it gets killed by a DPS in the area, those DoTs will run a positive duration.

The case changes slightly when you talk about something that needs to be burned asap. It all really depends on what in question needs to die.

To an extent even if you don't have Fester and something is kinda meaty and needs to die fast, IE: T8 Dreadnaught, even if you don't get the full duration, you should still use all three DoTs as you cannot Bane onto it either.

Which also leads to my next point of the number crunching in this thread in regards to using what. All of this changes in real time, depending on your fellow DPS no?

[pandabearcat]

Which also leads to my next point of the number crunching in this thread in regards to using what. All of this changes in real time, depending on your fellow DPS no?

Yep, but generally you have a good idea of how fast things are dropping.

You start casting Bio II or Miasma and by the time you finish, its already at 75% hp? Drop the second dot, immediately bio then Ruin II
You finish 1 dot and its close to 50%? Ruin + Ruin II.

Since generally melee combo is strongest on last hit, if you have a good sense (based on animation, the last hit has a huge flashy animation, or if you play those classes, you'll know) you can also tell when a mob is going to spike down.

The actual dps difference is marginal - without a doubt if an add is blowing up we're going to suck hard on it, but if you want to optimize you could.

And yea I realized I was confused on Miasma and Bio II, just swap the two in my OP.

[Judge_Xero]

You gave a bad example. The WoD hourglasses on average will last over 9 seconds which is when Bio 2 begins to go + over a single ruin....

To an extent even if you don't have Fester and something is kinda meaty and needs to die fast, IE: T8 Dreadnaught

Which also leads to my next point of the number crunching in this thread in regards to using what. All of this changes in real time, depending on your fellow DPS no?

I think they were referring to the Hourglasses as, since there are 4, which are all separate, it would require 8 GCD in order to dot them all with B+M before having to return to the first one to dot again. B + M are your highest potency/s compared to Bio 2 so I guess it makes sense that you would only rotate those two over 4 separate adds. (changes in a good WoD party where you wouldn't have the option to return to the last one, since it's dead so I see where you are coming from in that regard)

T8 is my favorite example of a SMN trying to be bursty and losing a ton of resources, by Baning/Fester. Where as even Doting it up when it spawns (Facetarget) and Ruin is pretty efficient, and saves 2 Aetherflow for the boss, or 2 for the Dread if your party dps is slow.

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Every different pug I join for random FCOB farming I have to change my rotation. As annoying as it seems, it's probably my favorite part of SMN, with how versatile it is in so many different situations.