More fun times in WoD

[ElHeggunte]

If classes can clear Turn 9, content that my company mate with his static still have yet to clear in Jobs and high iL gear, then this notion that a class can't perform as well as a Job is pretty much empty and without merit. Keep waving your 'Jobs trump classes' flag but it's pretty cut and dry to me, ability trumps all.

A well coordinated group that already knows T9 like the back of their hand clearing T9 as classes doesn't mean classes are suitable in every situation. Just like the earlier example that an entire alliance of tanks and scholars clearing WoD didn't really prove anything besides how well skilled, coordinated groups can overcome unusual circumstances. Substitute in your average DF group made primarily of people who scrape the bottom of the skill barrel and you'll have yourself a tragedy if you attempted the same thing.

Played by equally skilled players, a Job will outperform its base Class. It's simple numbers. Jobs have more stats, more abilities (some of which are a big part of the Job's toolkit), and sometimes access to better equipment than the base Class. Yes, individual player skill is a big part of the picture, but skill can only get you so far on its own.

[Elusana_Celah]

words

*noms some popcorn* ahh yes, logical reasoning that having an extra set of skills amplifying the efficiency of your character's role will, ultimately, make your character stronger. Bravo! I don't think anyone in the whole galaxy or even universe would have figured that one out.

But is a conjurer good enough to heal the place 100% efficiently and still not put extra burden on the other healer? Definitely. You get Medica and Medica II as a conjurer. You get cure 1, 2 and 3. I never used things like benediction and divine seal healing WoD. It's WoD, not T13. Not Savage coils. WoD. Do you need divine seal and regen? No, you do not. All that stuff does is allow you to watch Youtube while you're playing the place. You go in as a conjurer? Oh then you gotta work harder that's all.

What I find illogical is how serious people take WoD and how people are incapable of understanding what exactly you need to run the place efficiently.

You absolutely gimped yourself for no reason whatsoever and your "I know better than you" attitude despite failing to grasp basic concepts like Soulstones = more base stats is why they were pissed at you.

[TruebladeNuke]

What the hell am I even reading in this thread? I'm trying not to laugh at how angry and serious people insist on being over someone choosing to be a class over a job, but jeeze, you people are just... I can't help it anymore. I got to laugh and grab some popcorn over this now.

On a more serious note, I don't think anyone here is denying that jobs are technically stronger than classes, but the other side is DEFINATELY right about "Skill > Gear". I've seen people in classes out-do people with job souls equipped. Any time that happens, it should serve as a lesson to the one with the job soul equipped that they're obviously not trying their hardest if someone in a class role is out doing them. It of course often doesn't though.

Now excuse me while I watch this thread burn:

[ElHeggunte]

snip

Maybe if people weren't pretending that classes were "just as good as jobs" in this thread or that coordinated groups pulling it off makes it a good idea all the time your passive-aggressive retort would mean more. The idea that classes are "good enough" is also slippery slope reasoning that leads most players (not necessarily the OP or anyone in this thread) to being as mediocre as they are. Of course classes can perform well in the hands of a skilled player, but people like the OP are kind of the exception and not the rule here.

Though this thread also illustrates the point that how well you can do without your stone also depends on your class. The gains you get from your job stone aren't always as superfluous as what you get going from CNJ to WHM. MNK and NIN for example are kind of dependent on the skills they gain from their stone, let alone the not-so-trivial boost in stats.

People also take WoD "seriously" because it takes time and wasted time from people being terrible is frustrating, no matter what the content is. And before someone pipes in with "well the OP wasn't terrible", yes, I know. But again, the OP is the exception here. Most other players trying to do the exact same thing would fail miserably.

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Kind of like every tank who insist on a speed run, regardless on whether or not the rest of the party can handle it.

[Elusana_Celah]

words

Just because the classes are better, doesn't mean they are a requirement to perform the task efficiently. I don't need to be a white mage to clear Titan normal either. I can do that as a conjurer. White mage is MORE efficient, but conjurer gets the job done all the same with just a little more work on the player.

Only a troll is going to think that a conjurer is better suited to healing than a white mage so you can safely ignore them. All I'm stating is that a skilled player can perform his or her job in WoD the same with a conjurer as they can with a white mage. Divine seal, regen, benediction aren't deal breakers. Honestly benediction in WoD isn't needed at all if you're healing properly anyways.

Could a divine seal, swiftcast Medica II help save a raid from death because people are acting like retards? Hmm... not really in WoD no. I main white mage and have healing exp all the way into T13 and have run way too many WoDs to count so I'm merely speaking from experience. The extra efficiency and 30 or so MND gained from being a white mage isn't going to carry the raid in WoD anymore than a conjurer in the hands of a skilled player because WoD just doesn't have serious demands for what a white mage has to offer.

[Teryaani]

OP, I'm in the ranks of people that would have rolled their eyes, but as long as you were doing your stuff, would have not said anything.

Kiroh is right that the tone of responses is just weird. You said you did it because you were bored. Own that rather than making up excuses when people give you crap for it.

"You're imposing on 23 other people"
"I didn't screw things up and I was bored"

People can chide for you being a small bit trolly, but you've already said your peace at that point and you're right that you didn't cause the wipes.

But is a conjurer good enough to heal the place 100% efficiently and still not put extra burden on the other healer? Definitely. You get Medica and Medica II as a conjurer. You get cure 1, 2 and 3. I never used things like benediction and divine seal healing WoD. It's WoD, not T13. Not Savage coils. WoD. Do you need divine seal and regen? No, you do not. All that stuff does is allow you to watch Youtube while you're playing the place. You go in as a conjurer? Oh then you gotta work harder that's all.

What I find illogical is how serious people take WoD and how people are incapable of understanding what exactly you need to run the place efficiently.

With the number of half-arsed AFK-Laden Fail-tastic WoD runs I've seen, there is good reason to take that thing seriously. No the mechanics aren't hard, but if half the party is dying to mortal gaze or not attacking clouds or focusing down one dragon head or whatever, it gets frustrating. It's annoying to have a wipe, only to retry and suddenly it's fast and flawless because it means that everyone was screwing around.

I do get annoyed with the "classes are just as good as jobs" stuff on the forums. Yes you can make it work, but you have to know exactly what you're doing and most don't.

[Adire]

snip

Well, have you seen Kiroh's posts? His first post in the topic was quite aggressive, though he wasn't the only one immediately being hostile towards me to be fair. He was even lying (or at least misunderstanding) about things that I supposedly said in other posts, attempting to make me look foolish or like the villain, to gather support. That's a very underhanded debate tactic.

He even unwittingly revealed his misunderstanding of how insignificant the stats really are that WHM gives over CNJ with the pictures he posted comparing stats. Passionately defending a stance without being informed, to the point where you act as if your opponent is misinformed when they actually aren't, is quite insulting to your opponent.

So if any aggression did leak into my responses that I did not notice, don't you think it was a little justified? Though I find my posts to be assertive in my defense against militant people such as Kiroh posting in offense. I did not seek them out to insult their gameplay choice, doubt their skill, or fuss about something that harmed no one after all, they did come to me however, and Kiroh's very first post was aggressive and contained unfounded character doubts, assuming my intent was to "disregard 23 other people" for example, despite the fact that I still played my best, which proved to be more than enough. Going in with serious doubts or lack of experience about my abilities or not trying my best would have been disregarding the people.

I have not responded strongly to people who have not been combative either. I've been passive with people who have also been passive.

Debates aren't known for having the most tense-free atmospheres, and being overly passive in a debate is a great thing for your opponent to take advantage of, especially when your opponent is being aggressive and prodding at your character. And lying in attempts to get support is really quite childish, and misunderstanding but standing by inaccurate posts that still make your opponent look falsely bad isn't much better.

[balte049]

Threads like these have convinced me to run with FC's and linkshells only.

[Wobi]

There is no advantage CNJ would give you over using WHM and just us making more use of Cleric Stance, maybe even a bit of Holy spam to help burn down those heads and stop the raid wipe. However you elected to play a non-optimal set up and somewhat succeeded based on skill. However you still gimped yourself and could have potentially saved that run, but chose not to have that option available.

Sometimes one person CAN make all the difference, I know because I've saved a few runs myself with a miracle heal or well timed stun. It's not always about personal performance but what you can do for the team as a whole.