"Eureka, the Forbidden Land" thories [Crystal Tower SPOILERS]

[Fenral]

Either way we'd still need access to the interior of Syrcus Tower, which is sealed off. Still, something to maybe look forward to(?).

As an additional point of reference, pulling a stinger like they did after a "we may never meet again" ending, only to end up ignoring that person, is appallingly bad form. Rather, I don't think it's ever been done. Even if they ultimately subvert it (looking at you, Digimon Tamers), it's still a possibility that needs to be addressed.

Again, for the entire run of FFXIV it will be impossible to prove that CT is an isolated story, but all-too-easy to disprove. I personally would like to believe that the last prince of Allag is too important a character to be simply written off for a message about hope (especially one that contradicts XIV's other messages on hope rather spectacularly), seeing as there's still so much Allag left to deal with.

It's also a point worth mentioning that Desch, the character G'raha was loosely modeled after, did seal himself in a tower because of his destiny (and presumably died), but was later let out by the ghosts of Doga and Unei so he could continue to help the Warriors of Light. So completely cheapening that sacrifice would actually be entirely appropriate FFIII fanservice, and could even be the real way for the tower to be a "beacon of hope."

I'm not expecting any sort of continuation any time soon, just felt like sharing my (completely batshit) findings while they were still relatively fresh.

[Vejjiegirl]

Speaking of the FF3 Manga, did you think the Tank Body from World of Darkness is a revamp of the armor the main character wears from the Manga, Yuukyuu no Kaze Densetsu: Final Fantasy III Yori ? (much like the monk AF2 is a revamp of Yang's gear from FF4) Although a lot of things were changed from the orginal design, the Red Scarf, Shoulder pads and the chest "belt" remained.

[axemtitanium]

I'm afraid I don't see the resemblance.

[Fenral]

I realized I never properly answered you on this:

As for finding "another way" to use the Crystal Tower, I don't know if there is one. It's stated it was used to gather solar energy (from Dalamud), but to what end? It's basically a highly advanced solar power station, nothing more as far as we know.

The energy channeled by the Crystal Tower is, at least in part, aetheric in nature (not unlike Ceruleum), as evidenced by multiple references of it being used to power "magic". Dalamud itself was an add-on built generations after the main tower was completed, in order to expand its generative capacity.

Using it as a green-energy alternative in the distant future is certainly possible, but we also need to remember that G'raha is not only the last living person capable of controlling the tower, but his ability to do so is on a very short timer. Whatever he does with it, he won't have control for very long. The "magic" G'raha used to freeze the tower in time was powered by the tower itself, so that's already evidence of a broader spectrum of uses than as a simple oversize battery. Anything past those established facts is ultimately guesswork, but long-term use doesn't sound too viable to me under those conditions, not to mention what I've brought up before about its consequences.

As for being a "beacon of hope"? The solar power station near my house is certainly neat, but it's not exactly a universal symbol of hope for all mankind. Also, every single other use of the phrase "beacon of hope" in the entire game has been to describe a person, not a thing. G'raha himself was called the "light of hope" a scant few minutes before he decided that the "light of hope" was the tower itself, but memories are funny things.

It is also certainly possible that we've left the tower in a state where it can be used in some future era as a light to combat some future great tide of darkness, ensuring that our actions in the present have a profound effect on the course of eras to come, but for all the pretensions in this game's lore about the cycle of eras, this is still a Final Fantasy game. Breaking cycles is kind of how Final Fantasy operates (as far back as FF1).

If a point comes where the choice is between "use this artifact that could maybe ambiguously be dangerous if misused" and "let the world be consumed by darkness," the choice is pretty obvious to me. It would be breaking tradition to try and avoid it.

[Cilia]

Don't take it the wrong way, but I think you might be reading a bit much into this.

The Crystal Tower itself can't generate aether. I don't know if anything can. It might be able to augment the conversion of aether into effects in the same way more powerful gear boosts a Black Mage's damage output, but I don't know if it's possible for the tower to actually generate aether. Heck, even calling it a power generator is inaccurate; if it can generate aether, it's simply a converter from solar to aetheric energy. It's kind of similar to how magitek simply converts aether into electricity or fire; the Crystal Tower just does that, simply with solar energy and on a MUCH larger scale and with greater efficiency.

It was my understanding that G'raha put himself into stasis, much like Xande and the Doga / Unei clones, until people are able to open the Crystal Tower on their own. Presumably this would mean having tech as advanced as the ancient Allagans, and while Garlond Ironworks and the Garleans have some impressive stuff, it's still a far cry from Allagan tech. G'raha putting himself into stasis serves the long-time dilemma of the question as to what happens when he dies - he simply won't, so until people are truly capable of harnessing the Crystal Tower's capabilities (by replicating its tech, f'ex) nobody can enter or misuse it. That's also what I believe he meant when he called it a "beacon of hope;" it's something to work towards, something to aspire to (and, for the Warrior of Light and NOAH, a promise to keep).

This is rather off topic, but to break it down breaking the cycle of Astral and Umbral Eras (Eternal Recurrence, or "All of this has already happened and will happen again") will probably require killing both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, or otherwise the merging of them into one being. Light cannot exist without Dark or vice versa; if you destroy one (Zodiark) causality dictates the other (Hydaelyn) must fade as well. XIV's pretty idealistic, but in the wake of 2.5.5 I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. Twelve Paragons, twelve Archons... the cycle goes on eternally because neither can be stamped out forever. All of this has already happened and will happen again - the Archons give up their lives to kill the Paragons or vice versa, and whichever god has the most chosen servants left "wins." The Astral or Umbral Era goes on until the opposing god's servants grow strong enough to tip the scales in the other direction, and the samsara goes on.

But all of this has already happened - even if you try to do so, Zodiark cannot be truly destroyed since HE EXISTS BECAUSE OF HYDAELYN (and, by extension, YOU). So breaking the cycle means doing exactly what Middy says - rejecting your status as Hydaelyn's "pawn" and becoming "master of thy own fate." It means shaking off the shackles of the Goddess to truly write your own story, not simply continue the cycle of Astral and Umbral Eras.

The key, I think, is knowing what the world was like before and what truly caused the First Umbral Era... but that's been lost to the mists of time...

Well, whatever. Enough off-topic rambling.

[Fenral]

My only real point about the cycle of eras is that the tower is still a massive unfired Chekhov's Gun. Seeing it left to later eras would be kind of a waste, but I'm trying to believe that the powers-that-be know that but are still working out the specifics. Moving back on topic...

Don't take it the wrong way, but I think you might be reading a bit much into this.

Really? The thought had never occurred to me.

Reading too much into things and showing legitimate interest, even attempting to explain the validity of truly insane arguments, is how we show we care. Really, truly reading too much into things would be me explaining in detail how the entire thing can also work as a metaphor for suicide, but I'll spare you that one.

My prior arguments, for better or worse, are not completely insane. I've actually gone over the relevant event scripts in both English and Japanese (thank the Midgardsormr affair for that inspiration) to clarify the meaning on some of the more... embellished... points in the English. Aside from a few disconcerting added references to blood in relation to what G'raha "must do," and the astounding localization of "this time for sure" as "once more," the broad strokes basically check out. He intends to make the Tower ready for later use, with the specifics left pretty wide open (except that it's the destination, not the journey, that ultimately concerns him), and our expectation of "when" is left simply at "the future."

Of course you're supposed to think it could be left at that, because that's how that sort of ending works: a neat tidy resolution to most established plot points, but with a few final moments meant to show that it might not end there. It's how a season generally ends when a show isn't sure it'll be picked up for another. Considering the entire story was plotted out before the staff knew they'd be getting to do an expansion pack, that all makes perfect sense.

I understand pretty well what I was supposed to feel about that ending, but for a bunch of reasons I've already gone over, it failed to get me there. I'm not even remotely alone on that, either. Not to mention there were a lot of people who enjoyed it just fine, got the message well enough, but still ultimately came away from it expecting G'raha to show up again later, because otherwise why would the devs even bother?

So I choose to cling to the other sort of hope: the hope that it's not quite over yet. The belief is already there, as well as at least one deliberate clue, and the last major story update shot down a lot of previously untouchable claims about how FFXIV will handle its storytelling, so anything goes.

(If you choose to bow out after this, go ahead. I did appreciate having someone to bounce ideas off of, though, so thank you.)

[Torquil]

Eureka seems like a good candidate to play a role in the new relic weapon questlines.

[Nalien]

Eureka seems like a good candidate to play a role in the new relic weapon questlines.

I prefer to look at it a different way.

Eureka in Final Fantasy III was where the ultimate weapons were stored by the civilization that built Crystal Tower. That's where we're getting the idea for Relics to be there, but lets put a different spin on it;

In Final Fantasy XIV, Eureka is where the Allagan Civilization stored its Ultima Weapons. Ruby Weapon, Diamond Weapon, etc., all slumbering beneath. Ultima and Omega being elsewhere because reasons.

If they're all powered in a similar fashion to Ultima Weapon (taking from the Ophiuchus constellation), that could make for an interesting tie in to the main scenario as well...

[Fenral]

@Nalien: Your Eureka theory uses the sort of depraved fanfic logic that I absolutely adore, so I hope the devs are taking notes.

I don't have much to say myself, so I'm going to drop a few pictures to get started:

Somebody ask for a teleporter? The one in front of CT actually... doesn't look that much like the mirror used to enter Eureka in FFIII (there goes that theory), so while we may use it to access Eureka, the true entrance is likely still inside the tower proper.


Also, while on the FF Wiki page on Eureka, I noted what it said about the Eureka Key. In FFIII, it was given to the heroes by Doga and Unei in much the same way that they gave their blood to G'raha in the World of Darkness quest (same "body may perish" line, too). Doga had to travel to another world in order to find it, so if they try to stick to that at all, our favorite little Allagan clones could end up popping out of the Void somewhere with a very interesting key. That, or the Eureka Key is G'raha himself, and we (or they, or Koh "Archmagus Ex Machina" Rabntah) will need to release him from the tower in order to gain access. See above notes on Desch for how that works.

We've gotten a lot of "destiny" from the Crystal Tower storyline, but have yet to touch on "the power to change destiny," which was also pretty important to Final Fantasy III. Just a final something to think about.

[Cilia]

We've gotten a lot of "destiny" from the Crystal Tower storyline, but have yet to touch on "the power to change destiny," which was also pretty important to Final Fantasy III. Just a final something to think about.

The thing is, I don't know if changing destiny is a good thing. In III, Xande was the villain for challenging his fate. Similarly, the problems that arose from XIV's Xande could be said to be the result of cheating fate - had he not been resurrected, the contract with the Cloud of Darkness probably wouldn't have been made and the entire Crystal Tower conflict would be nonexistent. The Allagans also resurrected Xande to stave off or stop the decline the Allagan Empire - a stratagem which clearly did not work. It's only when people discover and follow their destiny - the Onion Kids in III and G'raha in XIV - that the problems are resolved.

At the same time, merely accepting destiny seems to perpetuate the cycle of history, both in III and XIV. The Cloud of Darkness isn't destroyed in III, simply banished back to the void; while the cycle of Astral and Umbral Eras has been going on for the entirety of recorded history in XIV without a clear way to end it, and it's implied the same destined souls carry out the gods' conflict over and over as the wheel of fate turns. While this isn't Dark Souls II, I think this quote has some significance:

Emerald Herald: "Are you the next monarch? Or merely... a pawn of fate?"

Compare to Midgardsormr's question after you first tell the Scions you've lost your blessing:

Midgardsormr: "Art thou a pawn, or master of thy fate?"

It's the same question: "Are you here, doing what you're doing, because you choose to be or because you're forced to be?" Are you really the Warrior of Light or just a puppet? If you choose to be the Warrior of Light are you accepting the shackles of fate (and Hydaelyn)? What would it cost to deny fate and break the cycle of Eras? More importantly, can the cycle be broken at all?

Did G'raha (ostensibly) fight through the Crystal Tower with you because he was fated to, or because he chose to? If he chose to, did he fall into fate's flow?

Tough questions man, tough questions. Still, now that I know Eureka is underneath the Crystal Tower I look forward to it maybe being added in 3.x. I get the feeling we'll get some answers about our fates in 3.x anyway, given Elidibus called Urianger to talk to him about that specific subject.

As a side note, I still don't see the Crystal Tower being tied into the main storyline, if only because it'll largely be ignored due to the effort required to go through it and once 3.0 hits nobody will want to run it. They'll probably have NOAH NPCs greet us more warmly if we did complete CT assuming Eureka is added, but I don't see either being tied into the Main Scenario.