"I Was Out of That!" (Some Life Lessons)

[Eye_Gore]

you aren't going to be there to waste anyone's time.

This is the real issue. Not who does what and why. Its that everyone's time is more valuable than the other persons no matter what. Who cares how its done elsewhere its irrelevant. Thing are done differently in all parts of the world for what ever reason. People drive on different sides of the roads in other countries. Does that mean one side is better than the other? If you don't want to waste your time, I suggest alternate means other PUG groups in the DF.

[SpookyGhost]

words

So, your suggestion is that everyone with experience who aren't willing to teach other's shouldn't queue for DF. I agree. Now, how are we going to go about enforcing that? Is there a way or are we just saying words that seem nice and are good ideas but aren't actually practical? I'm thinking that's the case. Again, it'd be fantastic if everyone helped everyone and we are all a pretty little community full of nice people... but it's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. Not in DF. Having these completely unrealistic expectations of hard content in DF is the problem - whether you're expecting to one shot it or you're expecting to learn from many wipes and having everyone be fine with that. Either everything is going to go smoothly by some massively lucky RNG (aka you either got all new people/exp people willing to teach OR you got an entire group of exp people who can one shot) or you're going to have some level of discourse in your party. You could get kicked, you could be the one doing the kicking, things aren't going to go swimmingly one way or the other.

I've been in many, many T7 DF attempts and I've helped many, many people understand the mechanics of the fight. It's probably the easiest fight in SCoB in terms of how easy it is to explain and not get everyone wiped. I've learned a few things from this:

1.) Some people can understand "if you have the triangle debuff, look off the edge before the timer reaches 0, stay looking off the edge until the debuff goes away" and some people can't. Eventually they will learn (freezing everyone multiple times tends to do this) but not everyone has the patience for that.
2.) Some people will leave after one wipe. Some people will give it the entire dungeon timer before they give up, even if they're experienced. There hasn't really been one appearing more than the other, sometimes you get a group where half the people leave, sometimes you get a group where no one leaves, sometimes you get a group where everyone leaves... it's random.
3.) Very few people actually go in without knowing the fight at all. Usually, within 3 or so runs, I'll get 1 or 2 people who say they've never done the fight and know nothing about it, and that's when I give a detailed overview at the start of the fight and work my way from there.
4.) Don't have expectations. I literally go into T7 thinking that no one knows what they're doing, will get us all murdered, not listen to advice, and vote abandon after one attempt. If you're expecting to clear, don't. If you're expecting to make it past one attempt, don't. Whatever expectation you have will be completely out the window no matter what it is after enough times in the DF.

It's a very pretty sentiment to think that everyone in DF should change to fit your needs and wants, but it's just not going to happen. I'm really sorry, and if you feel this way and we happen to get into an instance together, I'll literally stay the whole lockout and teach whoever I can. I, however, recognize that a large amount of people aren't like me and those people populate the DF en masse. Instead of complaining or expecting to "fix" the problem, I get on with it. It's a thing you have to expect, it's a thing you have to live with. If hard content wasn't in DF, however, this wouldn't be an issue - PFs would be set with expectations of the members in it and they would join the parties that meet their expectations. These still happen and on more populated servers they're a common occurrence vs taking your chances in DF, but as long as it exists you're going to get 8 people arguing in a party because everybody had an expectation that wasn't met.

[raelgun]

Why do people keep bringing up new players, no people the OP and most people are referring to people that make excuses and suck, stop using new players as your scape goat to make an argument, people don't have issues with new players only those that don't improve.
The amount of people that try to grasp desperately using new players is astounding, again it is not about new players.

[Eye_Gore]

So, your suggestion is that everyone with experience who aren't willing to teach other's shouldn't queue for DF.

I don't think I said that or implied it. However what I am implying is that no one is more important than the other. Of course alot will not agree with that. What I am saying is, we know how groups in the DF can be. To expect that everyone in there will be on the same page, watched videos, read guides, will perform at the same level as someone who cleared it a hundred times. While videos and the such can help prepare someone to what expect. It cannot and will not prepare for what does happen. Alot of things can go wrong real fast, and yes it is very possible it is not the players fault.

[raelgun]

People should *NOT* be PUGing high-level content. At least not expecting wins/loot/etc. Anyone who goes into a random party with expectations is asking for it.



That's the whole point of having a DF in the first place. To experience random people you would not have any experience with. You know, because MMO...

Actually there should be expectation, if you enter PVE content there should be some skill involved, you got there in the first place.

PVE content does have requirements so people should fulfil it, it sounds like you have a grudge against experienced players who actually get results, people who do not fulfil the requirements of a dungeon are the ones asking for it.

[Purrfectstorm]

1) the OP hasn't said ANYTHING that wasn't said before

Some things bear repeating or can be said in a different/better way.

2) the OP made her point poorly

Maybe I could've done better but I think many people get it. The quote was just a hook, nothing more, and Titan EX was used as an example because it's the most frequent place players claim to have been "out of that." Some think it's a bad example because people have real issues with the fight (i.e. are not lying about lag). However, I never said I doubted their claims or that their issues weren't real. I just said that players will kick players like that or abandon the duty. If you can't stay alive, you're a liability, it doesn't matter why.

3) OP is apparently new/inexperienced to internet posting

Nah. I just like debating maybe

The argument is supposed to be how players shouldn't leech off of others and actually try to PLAY the game instead of having other people play for them.

Well, that's part of the argument. The other part is that if players don't want negative outcomes (getting insulted, getting votekicked, or having the group disband, for example) there are things they can personally do to minimize this; some nastiness is unavoidable (it is the internet) but it's not completely out of a person's control. The same goes for actually beating the content: if you die right off, you're banking all your hopes on other people, if you work on improving yourself you gain some control over your chances and increase your odds.

[Purrfectstorm]

As far as hard content being in DF, maybe it shouldn't be. This is a weird position for me to take because I feel like people should get a chance to try the content even if they can't beat it (they have random people who are going to wipe them over and over). But since most groups seem to disband after about 2 wipes, in actuality, DF doesn't even work very well to practice hard content. If you can't practice the content through DF and you aren't going to clear it, yeah what's the point?

Maybe it would be helpful to have more gear tiers so players actually need to have beaten other hard content to even get the ilevel necessary to challenge harder content? I don't know if this would make any difference (you already have to beat T5 to do SCoB, T9 to do FCoB, etc.) and SE seems to be going in the other direction (removing the requirement to challenge the first 3 EX primals, beat Coil turns in order, etc.).

I don't even raid current content (I'm on T9 still) but I think there's too much of a discrepancy between doing the easiest content imaginable (for tome gear) and things like EX primals and Coil (for raid gear). Yet the ilevels are the same (secondary stats matter but generally not that much). I've seen many FCoB players suck but maybe we can expect people in dreadwyrm gear to be better than people in full tome gear, on average? I don't know. I think they would at least realize they're not going to steamroll new, hard content and understand some degree of preparation is helpful.

Another problem is that new players are queuing for Garuda EX, not knowing anything about the fight, and beating it within a few tries because echo actually does help there. Then they're doing the exact same thing for Titan EX (queuing blind and hoping echo will carry them through). The increase in difficulty there is enormous. The same thing goes with Coil really. You can 1-shot T4 in most groups now since the whole fight is a dps check and then these new players queue for T5 and get stuck on it for ages. I'm really pretty sure that SE should work on a more incremental increase in difficulty. That would do a lot to help players have accurate expectations when they queue.

[RukiaFae]

I wish I knew what the issue was because it comes and goes and its really annoying. I know that it's a lag issue because some times it happens and then other times it doesn't in the same dungeon. I do believe it's my internet because I recently changed my internet and my laptop runs fine. My friends always tease me that it's because I'm on a ps3.