"I Was Out of That!" (Some Life Lessons)

[SpookyGhost]

You could say the same to people who want a one shot kill.

You could, and you'd be right, but then why would either camp ever use the DF? JP servers use DF for clears and PF for practice. Why? Because there's an expectation that when you've entered a group with 7 random players, you aren't going to be there to waste anyone's time. The players with knowledge of the fight are going to perform at an average level and handle mechanics properly (or at least try to), thus either causing one or two wipes by a mistake of memorization or not causing a wipe all together. The new player, meanwhile, has no idea what mechanics will come in that fight and can easily cause so many wipes that the group disbands. Unfortunately, both types of players will enter DF, and there will be a conflict. There's nothing you can do to prevent it, it's a flaw within DF itself.

This isn't even really a problem with the players though, hard content where you can actually get the group wiped infinite times shouldn't be in the DF. This is largely a mistake on SE's part and, though I don't see it changing, I'd like for it to. Neither the experienced nor the inexperienced should be able to queue for stuff like Titan EX - they should have to make parties in PF for their preferred group comp and learn or farm the content from there.

P.S. I have absolutely no idea how to to the image/quote thing properly...

"Reply With Quote" at the bottom of the person's post will quote it in a new reply box underneath.

[Eye_Gore]

you aren't going to be there to waste anyone's time.

This is the real issue. Not who does what and why. Its that everyone's time is more valuable than the other persons no matter what. Who cares how its done elsewhere its irrelevant. Thing are done differently in all parts of the world for what ever reason. People drive on different sides of the roads in other countries. Does that mean one side is better than the other? If you don't want to waste your time, I suggest alternate means other PUG groups in the DF.

[SpookyGhost]

words

So, your suggestion is that everyone with experience who aren't willing to teach other's shouldn't queue for DF. I agree. Now, how are we going to go about enforcing that? Is there a way or are we just saying words that seem nice and are good ideas but aren't actually practical? I'm thinking that's the case. Again, it'd be fantastic if everyone helped everyone and we are all a pretty little community full of nice people... but it's not going to happen. It's never going to happen. Not in DF. Having these completely unrealistic expectations of hard content in DF is the problem - whether you're expecting to one shot it or you're expecting to learn from many wipes and having everyone be fine with that. Either everything is going to go smoothly by some massively lucky RNG (aka you either got all new people/exp people willing to teach OR you got an entire group of exp people who can one shot) or you're going to have some level of discourse in your party. You could get kicked, you could be the one doing the kicking, things aren't going to go swimmingly one way or the other.

I've been in many, many T7 DF attempts and I've helped many, many people understand the mechanics of the fight. It's probably the easiest fight in SCoB in terms of how easy it is to explain and not get everyone wiped. I've learned a few things from this:

1.) Some people can understand "if you have the triangle debuff, look off the edge before the timer reaches 0, stay looking off the edge until the debuff goes away" and some people can't. Eventually they will learn (freezing everyone multiple times tends to do this) but not everyone has the patience for that.
2.) Some people will leave after one wipe. Some people will give it the entire dungeon timer before they give up, even if they're experienced. There hasn't really been one appearing more than the other, sometimes you get a group where half the people leave, sometimes you get a group where no one leaves, sometimes you get a group where everyone leaves... it's random.
3.) Very few people actually go in without knowing the fight at all. Usually, within 3 or so runs, I'll get 1 or 2 people who say they've never done the fight and know nothing about it, and that's when I give a detailed overview at the start of the fight and work my way from there.
4.) Don't have expectations. I literally go into T7 thinking that no one knows what they're doing, will get us all murdered, not listen to advice, and vote abandon after one attempt. If you're expecting to clear, don't. If you're expecting to make it past one attempt, don't. Whatever expectation you have will be completely out the window no matter what it is after enough times in the DF.

It's a very pretty sentiment to think that everyone in DF should change to fit your needs and wants, but it's just not going to happen. I'm really sorry, and if you feel this way and we happen to get into an instance together, I'll literally stay the whole lockout and teach whoever I can. I, however, recognize that a large amount of people aren't like me and those people populate the DF en masse. Instead of complaining or expecting to "fix" the problem, I get on with it. It's a thing you have to expect, it's a thing you have to live with. If hard content wasn't in DF, however, this wouldn't be an issue - PFs would be set with expectations of the members in it and they would join the parties that meet their expectations. These still happen and on more populated servers they're a common occurrence vs taking your chances in DF, but as long as it exists you're going to get 8 people arguing in a party because everybody had an expectation that wasn't met.

[Anna_Lannis]

You could say the same to people who want a one shot kill. Besides almost every PF group I see with a new player pointing that out are almost always empty.

This is the primary reason that people leech off of others in these fights, because no one wants to help. I don't blame people being "selfish" for wanted to actually do content and play the video game. Besides, how many beings do you know that can survive and improve their whole lives not at the expense of others?

P.S. I have absolutely no idea how to to the image/quote thing properly...

[Anna_Lannis]

You could, and you'd be right, but then why would either camp ever use the DF? JP servers use DF for clears and PF for practice. Why? Because there's an expectation that when you've entered a group with 7 random players, you aren't going to be there to waste anyone's time.

Because this isn't Japan. If you want to play the JP way, then go to a JP server... but got forbid interacting with people we don't know while learning a fight because of OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME.

"Reply With Quote" at the bottom of the person's post will quote it in a new reply box underneath.

I cannot believe I did not see that. Thank you.

[SpookyGhost]

Because this isn't Japan. If you want to play the JP way, then go to a JP server... but got forbid interacting with people we don't know while learning a fight because of OTHER PEOPLE'S TIME.

Not really understanding this argument tbh. Interacting with people and teaching them a fight is fine, but not everyone in the group is going to feel that way. Yeah, it'd be fantastic if everyone was nice and friendly, but are you going to go into DF expecting that? Even in a community like XI's (yeah yeah argue all you want about it, XI's community was pretty friendly) if you just walked up to 7 people and asked them for gil to buy something, only a few would give you it at best. That's essentially what you're doing, expecting 7 random people to cater to you. It's just... not going to happen. If, as an example, you're in a group with 7 new players, you happen to be the one who knows the fight, and you're extremely rude to everyone because they're new... then you're going to get kicked. Why is it different if someone constantly causes wipes and is then kicked because they don't know the mechanics?

It's really fundamentally wrong to go into DF and expect literally anything on NA servers (which is the problem), you could get anyone with any level of experience and any kind of attitude. They could be nice, they could be friendly, they could teach you the fight, or they could make fun of you every time you made a tiny mistake. It's random and holding all these people to a level of high moral standard is just not very smart.

Basically, it doesn't matter if you agree with random people in DF or not, whether you think they're right or wrong, they're going to exist. You can report them, you can try to get them vote kicked, sometimes that'll work sometimes it won't. DF shouldn't be for hard content and it's literally because of this. People hate RNG, right? This is the most annoying RNG you can put yourself through.

[Anna_Lannis]

People should *NOT* be PUGing high-level content. At least not expecting wins/loot/etc. Anyone who goes into a random party with expectations is asking for it.

It's really fundamentally wrong to go into DF and expect literally anything on NA servers (which is the problem), you could get anyone with any level of experience and any kind of attitude. They could be nice, they could be friendly, they could teach you the fight, or they could make fun of you every time you made a tiny mistake. It's random and holding all these people to a level of high moral standard is just not very smart.

That's the whole point of having a DF in the first place. To experience random people you would not have any experience with. You know, because MMO...

[SpookyGhost]

People should *NOT* be PUGing high-level content. At least not expecting wins/loot/etc. Anyone who goes into a random party with expectations is asking for it.

S'my point, yeah.

That's the whole point of having a DF in the first place. To experience random people you would not have any experience with. You know, because MMO...

Correct, and I think DF is fantastic for 4man dungeons and the HM primals, however rolling the dice on hard content (EX/Coil) just isn't going to end well for you no matter how experienced (or inexperienced) you are. :V

[raelgun]

People should *NOT* be PUGing high-level content. At least not expecting wins/loot/etc. Anyone who goes into a random party with expectations is asking for it.



That's the whole point of having a DF in the first place. To experience random people you would not have any experience with. You know, because MMO...

Actually there should be expectation, if you enter PVE content there should be some skill involved, you got there in the first place.

PVE content does have requirements so people should fulfil it, it sounds like you have a grudge against experienced players who actually get results, people who do not fulfil the requirements of a dungeon are the ones asking for it.

[Morbid]

Failure comes along with success. What would folks do if FFXIV was like the old Everquest and old school MMO's where you literally had to prep for 30 minutes before you even stepped out of the town.

Too much emphasis on relying on video walkthroughs. If you watch them that's cool for you; if you don't even cooler.

And how is being a video watcher being an elite I'd think that would fit more with players who have tried and failed who have tasted both sides of success and failure and eventually succeeded on their own terms. (Withstanding a complete carry of course)

So if you watch a video before attempting something you should complete it first shot every time and be able to carry all the lackluster non-video watchers