[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[SydeBeheln]

Yea you make a point that is a big issue. Something that needs to be completely over hauled is the coster skill ratio.
I could talk all day about action costs of this ability taking up too much space for this ability that I really want to use.
As this is something that I like to see, cause it gets players thinking and rotating there strategies around to meet the core reasoning for there "character build". It's simply something IMO that is not yet finished. So I wouldn't worry too much about that part of the equation just yet.

And yes cure 3 is a major example with "class specific skills" that should only be usable on a particular class.
maybe Cure 1 or cure 2 can be transferable, but with higher Action costs with higher level skills.
You bring up another great topic, is level requirement. Players need to meet the corresponding rank of the skill. R20 skill transferable to only r20 classes, and again only if it is NOT a class specific skill.

[Karvapeikko]

i see what you mean, but the thing i was looking at is if you equip another skill from another class you are already giving up one skill from the class you are using. if i add a 3 pt ability from thm to my con i am giving up 3 of my ability points so i am giving up what i can equip. now the thing i don't like is seeing a r20 thm using cure3 knowing that is a high level spell from another class.

i wish they'd add more abilities like luminous spire is for gla that is only allowed to be used on gla. use the abilities purchased by guild marks to be only used by that class. i would also like skill level requirements like they are talking about adding for the gear. if it requires a level 20 in a class to get an ability it should be a level 20 in any other class before it can be equipped to it.

I like how AP limits how many skills you can use, but currently there isn't much sacrifice done, if you choose to add self-healing abilities. In my opinion better skills should cost more AP to equip(there are some already). It doesn't make much sense to me that equipping Puncture, a R2 skill, costs as much as bloodletter, a R48 skill. Of course no one would think twice cross classing these kinds of skills, when there is no sacrifice. That said, why can you equip wide volley to any combat class? There are damn many weaponskills that doesn't make any sense used on different weapon. I understand, if you could equip Legsweep on Marauder, but Twisting Vice doesn't as axes just don't have any piercing properties. It can be thought in similiar way in spells. Magic classes don't use wands and like for no reason. It can be thought as Conjurer becomes proficient enough to cast Fire III with that magical staff/wand and immediatly picks up a sword and still be able to do it even, if you needed that wand/staff to do it a second ago.

[Dreamer]

I simply cannot understand why some people here are bucking so hard against having some freedom with how their character operates.

Forget action points, forget affinities. The bottom line is that for every ability you equip from another class, that's one less ability you can equip from your current one. To be honest, the only change eI would make to the current system is that I would have cross-discipline skills cost twice as many action points. For example, a DoW would need twice as many points to equip a DoM skill, and vice versa. Speaking of which, why are all the best cross-class conj and thaum skills only 2 action points(Cure, Shell, Protect, Stoneskin, Sacrifice, etc)? That always seemed backwards to me.

The armory system is a fantastic idea, and I'm glad they went with it. Some minor tweaks can balance it without having to rebuild it like with a job/subjob system.

[Jinko]

I think there should be some sort of UI to select 1-2 specific classes that you may choose skills from.. and the combination chosen should change your class name. For example gladiator + conjurer would yield the class name Paladin.

I like this idea, but there would be so many variations it would make developing that kind of system very difficult.

[darkstarpoet1]

I like how AP limits how many skills you can use, but currently there isn't much sacrifice done, if you choose to add self-healing abilities. In my opinion better skills should cost more AP to equip(there are some already). It doesn't make much sense to me that equipping Puncture, a R2 skill, costs as much as bloodletter, a R48 skill. Of course no one would think twice cross classing these kinds of skills, when there is no sacrifice. That said, why can you equip wide volley to any combat class? There are damn many weaponskills that doesn't make any sense used on different weapon. I understand, if you could equip Legsweep on Marauder, but Twisting Vice doesn't as axes just don't have any piercing properties. It can be thought in similiar way in spells. Magic classes don't use wands and like for no reason. It can be thought as Conjurer becomes proficient enough to cast Fire III with that magical staff/wand and immediatly picks up a sword and still be able to do it even, if you needed that wand/staff to do it a second ago.

now this i completely agree with. if higher skills cost more ap than the lower skills this in itself would be very beneficial. i have always been curious of why wide volley is not an arc only ability since in its own description it does say release arrows.

i think on the wand thing they are using it as the wand allows the aoe where the regular weapons do not. i could imagine how worthless mages would be if they allowed a battleclass to do full aoe spells. by using the magic as a weapons class you are losing some of the ability in itself to be able to use it. i may be over thinking it though.

[Mr_Gyactus]

If the problem was only Mage vs melee, it's solved. SE has stated

6. In addition to enhancing class differentiation with essential attributes and distinct appearances, we are also looking into introducing class and rank requirements for equipping gear...

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...16083b634f7678

So, if they modify stats from:
1. healing/damage = 80% from skill 20% from stats

to
2. healing/damage = 30% from skill 70% from stats

we can still equip Cure III with a melee, but without stats, does it worth?

This does not change anything with melee (pugilist, a gladiator, a lancer, marauder) and archers too, for obvious reasons.

[AeriousEldrin]

Personally, I like the job/sub job system. FFXI was my favorite MMO of all the ones I've played.

But, the situation we are in is this:

This game is dying.

This is not the same MMO business world that it was 10 years ago. There are tons of choices for people to play. "Making something new" if fine for other MMOs, but not this one. If you want to save this game you have to appeal to the things that make your game unique in its branding, and existing fan base. This is not a console game with a predicted 100 hours of game play. This is an MMO. To reinvent yourself each time is a bad choice. The only thing that will save this game is to grab onto the things that are dear to players. Chocobos, Moogles, Airships, and (the relavent part to this thread) original FF1/FFXI classes. Final Fantasy's place in the MMO relm has been set. Don't worry about making it "X like World of Warcraft", or "Y like EQ2". Focus on the things that keep people playing, and making money. If this is not done, this game will die. It does not stand out in the current sea of MMOs, and it will be washed away and forgotten by the waves of new games (Tera, Old Republic, etc. etc.). The original design of this game was poor. It is like having The Old Republic without lightsabers. Fix it, and fix it fast or this game is over.

[Arcell]

Honestly though, FFXIV does stand out in the sea of MMOs. To me at least, FFXIV is one of the most unique MMOs I've ever played. When I play the game I don't think it feels like any other game and I like that. Now that's not to say that we shouldn't implement ideas from other games that are good however I think job/subjob is not one of those systems.

What we have right now gives too much freedom though I think job/subjob is too restrictive. As other people have been mentioning, a decent fix is just a bit more restriction on the current system. Add a bit more of a cross-class penalty either for the use of the skill or for the action point cost. Make some more skills restricted to classes.

The biggest thing we're missing though, as with the auto-attack discussion, is that we don't know what the new battle system is going to be. We simply don't know anything about it and that means we can't really have a tremendously meaningful discussion about it. Whatever it is though, I have faith in the new team and I'm sure they'll pull off something great. They've honestly not really disappointed me yet.

[kukurumei]

I simply cannot understand why some people here are bucking so hard against having some freedom with how their character operates.

Forget action points, forget affinities. The bottom line is that for every ability you equip from another class, that's one less ability you can equip from your current one. To be honest, the only change eI would make to the current system is that I would have cross-discipline skills cost twice as many action points. For example, a DoW would need twice as many points to equip a DoM skill, and vice versa. Speaking of which, why are all the best cross-class conj and thaum skills only 2 action points(Cure, Shell, Protect, Stoneskin, Sacrifice, etc)? That always seemed backwards to me.

The armory system is a fantastic idea, and I'm glad they went with it. Some minor tweaks can balance it without having to rebuild it like with a job/subjob system.

Ideas that sounds nice, sometime run into something call the real world. Hindsight is a biach. It doesn't work. reason have been long and heavy in the specifics.

If you don't understand it, you don't want to understand.

[kukurumei]

Honestly though, FFXIV does stand out in the sea of MMOs. To me at least, FFXIV is one of the most unique MMOs I've ever played. When I play the game I don't think it feels like any other game and I like that. Now that's not to say that we shouldn't implement ideas from other games that are good however I think job/subjob is not one of those systems.

What we have right now gives too much freedom though I think job/subjob is too restrictive. As other people have been mentioning, a decent fix is just a bit more restriction on the current system. Add a bit more of a cross-class penalty either for the use of the skill or for the action point cost. Make some more skills restricted to classes.

The biggest thing we're missing though, as with the auto-attack discussion, is that we don't know what the new battle system is going to be. We simply don't know anything about it and that means we can't really have a tremendously meaningful discussion about it. Whatever it is though, I have faith in the new team and I'm sure they'll pull off something great. They've honestly not really disappointed me yet.

Certainly a team with the goal of "saving" the Game is different from a team for "Creating" the game.

Like everything else, you look at your own habits differently if you're on the edge of eviction. The role of Yoshi-P here is going to be crucial. Nothing is going to escape his eye, because he can't afford to loosen the leash for anyone.