[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[Artius]

I have to agree a bit with Mr_Gyactus, it is way too cheap to add skills from other classes. I also agree that as we level up, it quickly becomes possible to equip EVERYTHING. Once passed R15 in a class, you have more than enough points to pick and choose WS without having to worry about leaving something out.

What might be a simple solution would be to just double the slot cost of anything outside your class (go from 3 points to 6 points). Other than that, the AP cap could do with some lowering, but you would have to recalculate the distribution per level. A simple linear progression would not work that well, though, as you are extremely restricted on skills for the first couple of levels (but with how fast they fly by, it might be a non-issue currently).

[kukurumei]

I have to agree a bit with Mr_Gyactus, it is way too cheap to add skills from other classes. I also agree that as we level up, it quickly becomes possible to equip EVERYTHING. Once passed R15 in a class, you have more than enough points to pick and choose WS without having to worry about leaving something out.

What might be a simple solution would be to just double the slot cost of anything outside your class (go from 3 points to 6 points). Other than that, the AP cap could do with some lowering, but you would have to recalculate the distribution per level. A simple linear progression would not work that well, though, as you are extremely restricted on skills for the first couple of levels (but with how fast they fly by, it might be a non-issue currently).

That's the short-sighted problem with this particular system. Balancing means you would have to audit almost every single skill with every major update.

No one likes to pay for a silk vacuum bag as they say.

[Reika]

Lol. Yea you can equip all of YOUR classes skills as long as you don't equip a different classes skills. Lower ranks have to sacrifice skills from their class for skills from another, once you get to higher ranks, I would say about R24 or 26, you will have enough for a few from other classes. like 2 or 3. At no time can you equip every skill from every class at once....

And I cant even equip all my lancer skills at once at r18 lancer. Me believes ya need to go back and recheck things.

Oh, and i cant equip 12 if my THM skills at r44 THM

Oh, and I was actually wrong about being able to equip 2 or 3 from other classes. at R50 gladiator, you cannot fit all of your Gladiator skills + Shield skills all at the same time.

[darkstarpoet1]

Lol. Yea you can equip all of YOUR classes skills as long as you don't equip a different classes skills. Lower ranks have to sacrifice skills from their class for skills from another, once you get to higher ranks, I would say about R24 or 26, you will have enough for a few from other classes. like 2 or 3. At no time can you equip every skill from every class at once....

And I cant even equip all my lancer skills at once at r18 lancer. Me believes ya need to go back and recheck things.

Oh, and i cant equip 12 if my THM skills at r44 THM

Oh, and I was actually wrong about being able to equip 2 or 3 from other classes. at R50 gladiator, you cannot fit all of your Gladiator skills + Shield skills all at the same time.

you will never be able to convince people of what you say. the reason? they don't want to believe in facts. they want to believe that a r50 can go to r1 and equip all skills to that class because it supports their argument.

i seen it is hard to handle 3 bars of skills with a controller? i use a controller and handle mine quite easily.

i seen 4-5 skills is enough? a gladiator uses that many in just buffs and pulling hate.

the truth is this game went like all other final fantasy games and went with a completely new system for the next game. the armory system is a new system and yes it can use some tweaks, but i agree completely with reika in that it is going in the right direction. this game was advertised as for the hardcore as well as casual player. if you start removing the stuff that allows the casuals to play you force them to leave. it does need more stuff for the hardcore players, but not at the expense of the other kinds of players that are still playing.

[Kimahri]

Surprisingly, I actually agree with a lot of this. Allowing abilities to only be used from other classes at the ability's optimal rank makes perfect sense and is a completely reasonable restriction. Abilities having modified effects on other classes is also reasonable. This actually already happens on Marauder by extension of the fact that Steadfast, and it's effect on abilities, is only accessible while on Marauder.

Ah. See, Arcell? Knew we'd agree on some things once we started to discuss these differences.

Reika's post:

This goes in line with the equipment issue.

"should equipment be used at a rank requirement, or keep optimal rank at which it is most effective?"

Just because you can use stygian spikes on a r1 conjorer, doesnt mean it gives you as much MP back per hit as it would if your conjurer were r16 and you were using Transcendence along with it.

a spell Sacrifice II has reduced healing if used before R20, and further reduced healing if used without Transcendence.

Well. I'm so sorry, Reika. I obviously met my match......Oh wait........You forgot that at R1 your Mind, Intelligence, and Piety cap are at 34 while at R16 it's at 64......No s**t it's going to be less effective. Good job thinking that one through.

There are only a few things that are a step back from FFXI, content being the obvious one.

Please read my previous posts regarding content. Everything regarding this game is considered content. This part of the content sucks and needs refined. Thank you. Now on to DarkStarPoet.

you will never be able to convince people of what you say. the reason? they don't want to believe in facts. they want to believe that a r50 can go to r1 and equip all skills to that class because it supports their argument.

i seen it is hard to handle 3 bars of skills with a controller? i use a controller and handle mine quite easily.

i seen 4-5 skills is enough? a gladiator uses that many in just buffs and pulling hate.

the truth is this game went like all other final fantasy games and went with a completely new system for the next game. the armory system is a new system and yes it can use some tweaks, but i agree completely with reika in that it is going in the right direction. this game was advertised as for the hardcore as well as casual player. if you start removing the stuff that allows the casuals to play you force them to leave. it does need more stuff for the hardcore players, but not at the expense of the other kinds of players that are still playing.

First of all....Let me just go ahead and state the obvious......I don't really like you.....Or Reika. If you'd pay attention to the argument in the first place, you'll notice others and I say that you can equip A R50 ability to an R1 class. We didn't say ALL of their abilities. Don't twist our arguments to benefit your post. Truth is we said you can equip a hell of a lot of abilities to each rank. Crossing over abilities from one class to the other should result in 1.5x to 2x the AP needed at least. Maybe even 3x when using magic from a DoM on a DoW job besides Gladiator.

As for the gamepad mumbo-jumbo. Just because you can get along with it just fine, doesn't mean it isn't a chore to others.

When you talk about how SE always went another route in terms of a completely new system, you're wrong. They added new elements into the new system and kept some others from the previous model. It didn't just wipe everything clean and start from scratch. You always need a reference point to start off from. Without Mozart, Bact, and Beethoven you wouldn't have as great of music as today. It's just simple relativity. This current system can by all means stay, but it needs some serious 'tweaking' to balance the game so it'll go back to being a true MMO experience. I bought it to play with others seeking challenges, not to play by myself all day. I'd play Assassin's Creed then.

Talking about Casual & Hardcore gamers? Listen. Cleaning house on this current rat infested class system isn't going to lose the casual gamers. That's what they introduced the fatigue system and allowed you to solo by giving you levequests. It's certain things like these that let those with only an hour to up to three hours be able to still play and level up their classes at the same time. In no way shape or form will people leave because it became too difficult for them because they wanted the best abilities from every class. You obviously have no clue what you're even talking about. Just because you might have an R50 class, like Reika, doesn't mean your judgment is supreme rule over all.

I've clearly shown through my posts over topics that I shine light on points of view that others tend to agree with me who opposed it at first. You two, however, have done nothing but b***h and complain to anyone who opposed your idea's and then insulted their intelligence with a post depicting nothing but to ramble for two sentences each. This is why I don't like either of you, and to be honest I'm quite sure there are plenty of others who agree with me.

P.S. Good job, Mr_Gyactus. Another person I'd give credit to for at least furthering this thread's debatable issues.

Edit: I'm so sorry, I forgot that I posted my response to lack of content on the Auto-Attack thread, so here it is just so you can view it and not call me a liar!

What people seem to be forgetting is that certainly this is to a degree a lack of content. Classes being unique? Lack of content. Introduction of the aggro icon? Lack of content. Problems with little party play in the game. Lack of content. You say people leave the game due to lack of content, well it's one in the same. There's not enough good "content" to keep me hooked on this game. I'd much rather be off playing my Xbox with friends.

[darkstarpoet1]

Ah. See, Arcell? Knew we'd agree on some things once we started to discuss these differences.

Reika's post:



Well. I'm so sorry, Reika. I obviously met my match......Oh wait........You forgot that at R1 your Mind, Intelligence, and Piety cap are at 34 while at R16 it's at 64......No s**t it's going to be less effective. Good job thinking that one through.



Please read my previous posts regarding content. Everything regarding this game is considered content. This part of the content sucks and needs refined. Thank you. Now on to DarkStarPoet.



First of all....Let me just go ahead and state the obvious......I don't really like you.....Or Reika. If you'd pay attention to the argument in the first place, you'll notice others and I say that you can equip A R50 ability to an R1 class. We didn't say ALL of their abilities. Don't twist our arguments to benefit your post. Truth is we said you can equip a hell of a lot of abilities to each rank. Crossing over abilities from one class to the other should result in 1.5x to 2x the AP needed at least. Maybe even 3x when using magic from a DoM on a DoW job besides Gladiator.

As for the gamepad mumbo-jumbo. Just because you can get along with it just fine, doesn't mean it isn't a chore to others.

When you talk about how SE always went another route in terms of a completely new system, you're wrong. They added new elements into the new system and kept some others from the previous model. It didn't just wipe everything clean and start from scratch. You always need a reference point to start off from. Without Mozart, Bact, and Beethoven you wouldn't have as great of music as today. It's just simple relativity. This current system can by all means stay, but it needs some serious 'tweaking' to balance the game so it'll go back to being a true MMO experience. I bought it to play with others seeking challenges, not to play by myself all day. I'd play Assassin's Creed then.

Talking about Casual & Hardcore gamers? Listen. Cleaning house on this current rat infested class system isn't going to lose the casual gamers. That's what they introduced the fatigue system and allowed you to solo by giving you levequests. It's certain things like these that let those with only an hour to up to three hours be able to still play and level up their classes at the same time. In no way shape or form will people leave because it became too difficult for them because they wanted the best abilities from every class. You obviously have no clue what you're even talking about. Just because you might have an R50 class, like Reika, doesn't mean your judgment is supreme rule over all.

I've clearly shown through my posts over topics that I shine light on points of view that others tend to agree with me who opposed it at first. You two, however, have done nothing but b***h and complain to anyone who opposed your idea's and then insulted their intelligence with a post depicting nothing but to ramble for two sentences each. This is why I don't like either of you, and to be honest I'm quite sure there are plenty of others who agree with me.

P.S. Good job, Mr_Gyactus. Another person I'd give credit to for at least furthering this thread's debatable issues.

i did not quote you and say you said anything did i? i stated that i have seen people say. i personally agree with you that it needs alot of tweaks to the system. there are many things that i agree with you on and have agreed with you on many of your posts. i do not agree with you about a penalty for cross classing, but that is what we both have is an opinion and i am fine with you having a different one than me. there are people on both sides and i can see where your side is coming from.

now the gamepad it is not hard for me to handle, but if he could explain his issue with how he has it setup i could assist him in a way that may setup more easily for ease of use. it may be nothing more than having related items on different lines and hard going in between them.

now as far as the making casuals leave i was just referring to there are many items in these forums that is this one thing and that one thing. i agree none of them may be major to any of us, but to someone close to leaving it will only take one thing more. if they did too many little things they add up to a major issue for them. we all are here for one reason and that is to give a direction in which we wish the game went. the problem is most of the items i see posted i do not completely disagree with, but i am stating things i have heard in game more than once. the key is i do alot of talking to other people that play the game and we do alot of talking about what is enjoyable and what is not so enjoyable.

once again like i said i do not have a problem with you disagreeing with me, but i will be the first to say that i do not care whether you like me or not.

btw i also agree with the idea of being able to use a r50 ability at r1 on any class is stupid. if you cannot get it until rank 15 of one class then you should have to be r15 on any other class before it is available also.

[SydeBeheln]

Seems like amongst other things, once each job is given its own uniqueness, players aren't going to be using too many skills from other classes. Besides that, its easy to just narrow the amount of skills that can be borrowed from other jobs, and increase the action cost of those skills by maybe double.

I am a big fan of hybrid classes, I think it gives players even more customization on top of everything else. I do believe it needs to be limited however.
An example I always think of is,
A marauder decides he wants to not only fill the roll of a DD, but he would also like to help increase in buffing/de-buffing as well.
By borrowing skills from the unique buffer/de-buffer class, marauder at the cost of his own DD skills, can buff out other members of his party, or even just himself.

or

if marauder wants to tank, borrowing select tanking skills from Gld. can increase his proficiency in tanking.

Obviously this was the route SE was trying to go, but forgot that not only we suffer at the expense of attribute allocation, but uniqueness as well. On top of that we are lacking a restriction to all of this, making it far too easy for players to just traverse skills from classes that should not be permitted.

Regardless, I do NOT think linear skill progression with a sub class division is what this game needs.
The originality in the system now, offers far more interesting and personal customizations that wont lead to universal skill sets(players having to combine the right sub job to even be considered for parties).

So hopefully IMO, SE will continue to adjust the current system and unlock the true potential in it.

[Reika]

You wont be able to hybrid anything, as you cannot even equip all of your own skills in one class... doubling the cost of cross-classing will make it impossible to use your own classes skills.

[SydeBeheln]

I'm not really referring to the amount of skills you can equip, but mainly that there should be restrictions to WHAT skills you can equip. The current max in skill slots does need to be increased, maybe just simply, another row on the action bar.

Thats pretty simple enough as it is. When talking about cross-classing, as you said, "doubleing the cost will impossible to use your own classes skills", is the whole idea behind what I was talking about in the first place...
There needs to be a cost as to what you give away out of your own class, in return to have something from another class.

If you want to make a "pure class" then just simply never use other skills from other classes.
The element of doubling action costs for equipping skills is just a variable, obviously there doesn't need to be such a restriction for it too work either way. Simply you could just say, "X" skill is transferable, "Y" skill is class specific.

Balancing out these many factors is the fun part of growing, and customizing something you want to play.

[darkstarpoet1]

I'm not really referring to the amount of skills you can equip, but mainly that there should be restrictions to WHAT skills you can equip. The current max in skill slots does need to be increased, maybe just simply, another row on the action bar.

Thats pretty simple enough as it is. When talking about cross-classing, as you said, "doubleing the cost will impossible to use your own classes skills", is the whole idea behind what I was talking about in the first place...
There needs to be a cost as to what you give away out of your own class, in return to have something from another class.

If you want to make a "pure class" then just simply never use other skills from other classes.
The element of doubling action costs for equipping skills is just a variable, obviously there doesn't need to be such a restriction for it too work either way. Simply you could just say, "X" skill is transferable, "Y" skill is class specific.

Balancing out these many factors is the fun part of growing, and customizing something you want to play.

i see what you mean, but the thing i was looking at is if you equip another skill from another class you are already giving up one skill from the class you are using. if i add a 3 pt ability from thm to my con i am giving up 3 of my ability points so i am giving up what i can equip. now the thing i don't like is seeing a r20 thm using cure3 knowing that is a high level spell from another class.

i wish they'd add more abilities like luminous spire is for gla that is only allowed to be used on gla. use the abilities purchased by guild marks to be only used by that class. i would also like skill level requirements like they are talking about adding for the gear. if it requires a level 20 in a class to get an ability it should be a level 20 in any other class before it can be equipped to it.