[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[Kimahri]

Okay. Here we go.

You are right in a sense that blm did become less required during the phase of melee zerg, but that didn't make the job completely not used. Remember. I said name a job that was not used COMPLETELY. Black Mage was a hinderance in a melee burn, yes, but it became far more useful as a mana burn job. Have you ever been in a blm burn party before? Hands down the best parties I've ever had in terms of xp. Except maybe the smn burn in korroloka tunnel after the level sync patch. Going from 12-23 in five minutes? Haha, a blast. Left a big gap in my skill tree though.

Paladin: This one you've got it completely backwards. The only time you ever seen someone focusing more on a blink tank turning parties was when it was a merit party. It was far more effective to have a tank that could deal more damage, like Ninja, over a Paladin. However during the leveling phases you seen much more Paladin tanks over Ninja because they could hold Emnity better, tank better, and probably would never die under the right group. Remember. Ninjitsu would lose Emnity after every shadow hit which would turn Ninja into a piss poor emnity tank. You remember seeing Ninja's using Emnity+2 earrings in the Aht Urghan area's? Yeah.

Now let's get on your subject of two-handed weapons before I talk about Monk. Yes. For a time there two-handed weapons soared in DPS after their patch. However SE quickly repatched their error and turned them into only slightly better DD because of their two-handed weapons. After the patch, I still seen Thiefs, Warriors with two axes, Monks, Ninja's, etc, etc, being put into a party because if you knew your job well then DPS would stay the same as any other. I remember a Thief and I would completely wipe the floor with a second Imp with two weaponskills than join the fray on the first to further our skillchain bonuses. Oh, and it's about time Warrior finally excells greater in using Great Axe than regular Axes. It's main weapon was Great Axe. Look it up.

Let's get onto Monk now. Since I was a Monk, I think I know what I'm talking about. These were one of the greatest solo experts and party players if you knew what you were doing. When solo, stack as much counter gear as possible. When in a party? Haste and Destroyers or some very fast, high damaging weapon. I could just as easily kept up with my Samurai in merit parties because of my haste build. Not to mention that Asuran Fists would always pack a big wallop. The only thing that SE did wrong was make them useless in endgame scenes where their fists accounted for hardly nothing. However in Sea they were still great. That one they got right. Sky & HNM though? Not too great.

For the last time I'd like to state again that I asked you to name me one job that was completely......completely left out. Not one job on your list explained this. You had a couple concerns regarding your own experiences, but seeing as how I leveled all those jobs you mentioned. I had not one problem. If you took the time to look for alternatives to a melee zerg group, you might've had a greater time.

Oh! And as far as how this game is a much greater example to my army argument than FFXI was? How so? Remember. I said that if you were a Pikeman you couldn't pick up a bow and fire it while fending off the calvary onslaught. Seems to me that you can be an Archer in this game and still stand there blow for blow. In FFXI a job had a specific role. In FFXIV you can take whatever every role you want from every class. No, that's not how my Army works. You don't take a Tax Attorney to be your lawyer against a murder charge. It's not their field. I can list many more similies.

P.S. Reika. If you noticed, I hadn't called Chione stupid or to shut up. As I said, I don't like people who don't contribute nothing or use examples that doesn't deal with this current issue....Like you!

[Malakhim]

Do you have some kind of strange attachment to Reika or something?

0_o

[Arcell]

How in FFXIV can a Lancer pick up a bow and fire it in the midst of a battle? I mean sure between encounters if you've got one on you you can switch out but it's really no different than running home and changing it there, it just takes less time.

[Reika]

How in FFXIV can a Lancer pick up a bow and fire it in the midst of a battle? I mean sure between encounters if you've got one on you you can switch out but it's really no different than running home and changing it there, it just takes less time.

Thats a thing i miss, being able to equip different weapons for each job.

Still waiting on my great sword.

[AlexiaKidd]

There was nothing wrong with FFXI Job/Sub Job system it was great and it did allow a lot of flexibility, the only thing wrong with it were the PLAYERS. It was the players that expected you to /NIN for everything not the actual game.

The thing is people think FFXIV is great because you aren't "pigeon holed" into a role, but that is because the game is still young, FFXI was the same when it came out people used lots of different sub jobs. Once the game matures people will expect you to have certain abilities and if you don't you will be gimp, there is no avoiding that it will happen. Only thing is, that in FFXIV it will be 10x worse for you because instead of having to level that one job half way to have the sub job of choice you will have to level lots of classes to cap maybe just to get those select few abilities that everyone will expect you to have.

For example as soon as something like Utsusemi comes along it won't matter what class you are you will be expected to have it on your class, so will have to level whatever class has it to that level just to get it.

[Reika]

If they add ninja and Utsuemi, I dont think it will have as good of an effect it did as in FFXI, or like some skills, It just wont be cross-classablie, like Speed Surge and Shadowsere.

[Dreamer]

The thing is people think FFXIV is great because you aren't "pigeon holed" into a role, but that is because the game is still young, FFXI was the same when it came out people used lots of different sub jobs. Once the game matures people will expect you to have certain abilities and if you don't you will be gimp, there is no avoiding that it will happen. Only thing is, that in FFXIV it will be 10x worse for you because instead of having to level that one job half way to have the sub job of choice you will have to level lots of classes to cap maybe just to get those select few abilities that everyone will expect you to have.

Not everyone and their linkshell demands the most optimum build. Some of us build on a theme or just to try something different. For example, in City of Heroes, my favorite build was a Storm/Energy defender. Complete and utter chaos on the battlefield. Not efficient by any means, but crazy fun to play. In each of my builds in FFXIV, I generally pull abilities from a minimum of three classes. However, there are times when I'll just use abilities from only the main class. The flexibility is there so that we can use it.

[AlexiaKidd]

Not everyone and their linkshell demands the most optimum build. Some of us build on a theme or just to try something different. For example, in City of Heroes, my favorite build was a Storm/Energy defender. Complete and utter chaos on the battlefield. Not efficient by any means, but crazy fun to play. In each of my builds in FFXIV, I generally pull abilities from a minimum of three classes. However, there are times when I'll just use abilities from only the main class. The flexibility is there so that we can use it.

And you couldn't do that with the Job/Sub Job system in FFXI?????? Like I said in FFXI the system allows you to play around but keep balance and defined roles without things getting out of hand, in FFXIV they have to water down all the skills and abilities because you could cross class all the abilities and come up with a super class if they were actually effective.

[Arcell]

Regardless I still say that the dev team could come up with something far superior to both the current system and certainly job/subjob. I'd rather see them innovate than copy/paste an old outdated idea.

[Kimahri]

There was nothing wrong with FFXI Job/Sub Job system it was great and it did allow a lot of flexibility, the only thing wrong with it were the PLAYERS. It was the players that expected you to /NIN for everything not the actual game.

The thing is people think FFXIV is great because you aren't "pigeon holed" into a role, but that is because the game is still young, FFXI was the same when it came out people used lots of different sub jobs. Once the game matures people will expect you to have certain abilities and if you don't you will be gimp, there is no avoiding that it will happen. Only thing is, that in FFXIV it will be 10x worse for you because instead of having to level that one job half way to have the sub job of choice you will have to level lots of classes to cap maybe just to get those select few abilities that everyone will expect you to have.

For example as soon as something like Utsusemi comes along it won't matter what class you are you will be expected to have it on your class, so will have to level whatever class has it to that level just to get it.

Like I said in FFXI the system allows you to play around but keep balance and defined roles without things getting out of hand, in FFXIV they have to water down all the skills and abilities because you could cross class all the abilities and come up with a super class if they were actually effective.

Thank you, Alexia. You have a point. People don't seem to think that what you say will happen in the future, but a lot of them probably hasn't played as long as both of us to know what we're talking about. It's like when I was talking about ranger/thief in parties. It used to stack Sneak Attack onto it's weaponskill and easily do 2-3k++ damage. Being able to use whatever abilities you want right now would seriously criple it's survivability in that SE would have to seriously water down a lot to accomplish a fair balance without any classes being unique.

This system could still work, but a lot of abilities would need to be class restricted. As I said, I have no problem with some abilities being allowed to cross over. There are a few in every class that could be switched over without that said class losing any respect. Bloodbath, Provoke, Second Wind(Melee only), etc. They don't really define the classes and would help the other classes in a way.

Anywho. Hooray for the development team finally stating that they ARE bringing back Auto-Attack. Maybe now people will see that you and I aren't as bat**** crazy as they think.