[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[Reika]

So i will just reiterate that the current system is good-to-go

[Arcell]

OH! I almost forgot! Your complaint over Marauder having Intimidation? Well I remember so well that Warrior of XI had an ability that Paladin did not..........Provoke! I'm going to let you marinate on that for a second. Let those juices soak into whatever that is up there in that cavity you call a head.

Oh! I almost forgot! This is not FFXI. Now say it with me: This is not FFXI. This is not FFXI. This is not FFXI.

I don't care what worked for Warrior and Paladin in FFXI, things don't work the same way in FFXIV. Our enmity system is entirely different and is undergoing changes so that it will work a bit better. Regardless, take a Marauder and a Pugilist both using only their class abilities and traits and I guarantee that Marauder will be able to hold hate better. Between Intimidate, Defender, Disorient (x3), Warmonger, Full Swing and Storm's Path there's no way the Pugilists few abilities (Taunt, Accomplice and Jarring Strike which is a conditional evade ability) could stand up to that in terms of enmity generation.

[Reika]

I will also like to reiterate that this is not FFXI... .
I have Intimidate (MRD Trait) and Accomplice (Pug skill) Equipped on my gladiator. Holds hate like a champion.

[catdaddy53]

I think that is a good idea. It allows you become stronger and to use more skills like some of the version of FF I have been playing FF since they first came out way back when

[Demacia]

There you go making assumptions and putting words in my mouth again. I don't want to make my own "ultimate cookie-cutter class", in fact the way I play Pug is distinctly different from how other people even in my LS play it. Regardless, I don't want something like Intimidate to be Marauder specific, thus making it THAT much harder for Glad or Pug to tank. I think anyone who is tanking should have Intimidate and anyone who's not tanking should have Out of Sight. That's one of the things put into the game to help keep aggro shifted a certain way. If you made Intimidate specific to Marauder you'd have people saying that Glad and Pug aren't viable tanks because they can't keep hate as well. If you made Out of Sight specific to Archer you'd have people saying that Lancer, Pug and Marauder aren't viable DD classes because they've lost that key enmity mitigation trait.

I don't want to see job/subjob because it is too restrictive and creates too many cookie-cutter community standards where anything else is shunned. I didn't play XI to 75 in anything but I know other people can back me up there in that if you weren't cookie-cutter class X/Y you were shunned and couldn't get a group. Any originality was stripped from the game after a point. If you were something you HAD to sub a specific job or else you sucked, that's taking it too far.

Also you clearly have no understanding of the term "cookie-cutter" if you think that "cutting my own abilities out of other classes" defines it. It means that everyone is the same, you have standards that you cannot deviate from. So far in XIV there are few cookie-cutter standards. Want a tank? You've got Glad, Pug and Marauder. Want a DD class? You've got Lancer, Pug, Marauder and Archer. Even the mages can take over each other's roles with a degree of success though some are better than others.

And how about you stop attacking me? I have not once said a single insulting word towards you and it really doesn't help your argument. An argument based on attacking another and not the issue isn't really a sound argument now is it?

Are you guys serious? Every class had several viable subjobs for many different situations. Nobody would want a SAM/SMN because that's garbage and makes no sense, but SAM/WAR SAM/THF SAM/RNG SAM/NIN SAM/DRG and SAM/DNC were all great and each gave Samurai a completely different playstyle. Would you want a CON who insisted on tanking or have him cure/nuke instead?

If you're gonna talk about something, at least have the knowledge to back it up. I can tell you the armory system is bad because I actually took the time to play FFXIV for a few months.

Also @ Reika: drop the "go back to FFXI" nonsense. People aren't asking for FFXI-2 and if you think that you're an idiot. Ignoring everything in FFXI was a gigantic mistake by the dev team that even Yoshida admits to. I actually DID start playing FFXI again, but that doesn't mean I want the $80 I spent on a cute journal and some stupid certificate to go to waste. I actually want the "game" that came with the journal to be good some day. The armory system, market wards, all those terrible ideas are just holding its progress back.

[Arcell]

True there are some combinations that don't work but with job/subjob there's little to no grey area for what's "good" or "bad". With our current system you've got 3 tank possibilities, 4 DD possibilities and the casters can both go with Support and Nuking though I'd say enfeeblement would be best suited to THM. The freedom comes in how you want to build those roles and with the current system there are lots of possibilities. With Job/Subjob there are only a handful of viable combinations and everything else is shunned.

I believe I'm quite qualified to talk about the Armoury system, as I've got almost every combat class to 25 and Pugilist almost to 50.

Also true ignoring everything from FFXI was a big mistake but there are some things that are best left in the past. I believe job/subjob is one of them. This game can do much better than that and it can do better than our current system. I'm for moving forward, not back.

[Reika]

True there are some combinations that don't work but with job/subjob there's little to no grey area for what's "good" or "bad". With our current system you've got 3 tank possibilities, 4 DD possibilities and the casters can both go with Support and Nuking though I'd say enfeeblement would be best suited to THM. The freedom comes in how you want to build those roles and with the current system there are lots of possibilities. With Job/Subjob there are only a handful of viable combinations and everything else is shunned.

I believe I'm quite qualified to talk about the Armoury system, as I've got almost every combat class to 25 and Pugilist almost to 50.

Also true ignoring everything from FFXI was a big mistake but there are some things that are best left in the past. I believe job/subjob is one of them. This game can do much better than that and it can do better than our current system. I'm for moving forward, not back.

Well said. +1

[Demacia]

Well the purpose of a subjob was to either boost your main job's strength, compensate for its weakness, or use its strengths to change its role in a group. It wasn't meant to be used to do everything you want in one package but even though a damage dealing class class was always gonna be a DD, you could switch to THF sub and focus on enmity control/burst damage, switch to DNC sub to focus on TP fueled healing, or switch to WAR sub for pure damage and emergency provokes. Every MMO has roles that need to be filled. It's a group effort. Of course, if you had a job combination that doesn't help the group, why would they want you?

FFXIV is no different in that sense. The only difference is that instead of having a collection of -UNIQUE- jobs that can each fill several roles in a group by using different subjobs, you have a few DDs whose only difference is the weapon they use (save for a handful of class specific abilities), mages with no defined roles, and one standard tank. You aren't gonna see tanking archers, main healing gladiators, or melee DD mages (they can't even do that if they wanted to because everyone is bound to using one weapon). You would shun any one of those just like an FFXI player would shun a BLM/MNK.

Honestly, the armory system is made worse because of how unimaginative the classes are. Not to mention the awful battle system and physical levels contradicting the nature of the armory system. None of it works well together. People complain about the subjob system not giving them the freedom to do as they like but that isn't true, it's the community who doesn't let you do this and with good reason. This isn't a single player game where one character can deal physical damage, nuke, and heal at the same time and you being able to mix and match a bunch of random skills into one package will make you as unique as a monk subbing black mage in XI while wearing a set of CHR gear. It'll also make you just as useless.

[Arya]

Sure it's not unique in the MMO world, but it still provided cross-job skills with balance.
Anyone else want the FFXI system back?

It's not FFXI. Move on and do something new.

[Arcell]

mages with no defined roles

Now that's not even true. Currently there are 3 roles mages can fill: Support, Damage and Enfeeblement. Support obviously entailing healing and buffs. Damage obviously entailing nuking/simply dealing damage. Enfeeblement is the one thing I'd say would probably best left to THM as opposed to the other two which can kind of go either way. With DoTs, status effects and debuff spells the enfeeblement role is surprisingly deep. You can use up to four of the Absorb skills on yourself and then use Initiation to transfer those to the tank. You have access to a variety of status effect skills as well. The DoTs can honestly make a world of difference in the fights that last long enough to make use of them, like NMs.