[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[Lienn]

Most often people who favor originality are gonna get attacked in these forums.. often viciously. Job/subjob is very restrictive, and it will only serve to make one gladiator the same as the next, so on and so forth. The current system allows character skill customization to their liking, and it needs to stay that way.

The door to FFXI is still open.

Agree! People need to keep looking back and accept the new! Maybe if there weren't so much crying about how good FFXI is and how bad FFXIV is the devs could be going foward instead of double checking every system.

Isntead of asking for this game to become FFXI-2, why not going to FFXI forum and ask better graphics? Would be a much easier deal updating the models there than changing all FFXIV system to make a FFXI-2.

People need to accept the new. This game is very fun when you try and stop comparing it to FFXI.

[Reika]

Agree! People need to keep looking back and accept the new! Maybe if there weren't so much crying about how good FFXI is and how bad FFXIV is the devs could be going foward instead of double checking every system.

Isntead of asking for this game to become FFXI-2, why not going to FFXI forum and ask better graphics? Would be a much easier deal updating the models there than changing all FFXIV system to make a FFXI-2.

People need to accept the new. This game is very fun when you try and stop comparing it to FFXI.

So much truth! All they needed to do was upgrade FFXI's graphics and they wouldn't need a FFXIV... or WOULD they. perhaps it is because this is a different game, and it needs to stay different

The door to FFXI is still open (imma keep repeating this for those folk)

[Ceons]

The door to FFXI is still open

I'll help you spread the message

[Kimahri]

To Lienn and Reika.

Isntead of asking for this game to become FFXI-2, why not going to FFXI forum and ask better graphics? Would be a much easier deal updating the models there than changing all FFXIV system to make a FFXI-2.

Oh. How funny. Here, let me throw another statement of mine I said up above that you've might've overlooked.

"If you took FFXI and reskinned it with different classes, storyline, abilities, some new battle mechanics, and I guess graphics, it would be considered a new game. Case in point? From FF12 to FF13!!"

Eh? What's that you say? Yeah. I thought so. You two are just the two typical people that don't read anything disregarding your opinions. Only to what you want to hear. Man, that sounds just like the selfish people I always knew you were to be. Haha! Now back to Arcell.

Actually I think Guild Marks traits should be usable by other classes. If they were restricted to one class then Marauder would be the "best" tank because it has Intimidate and people would probably start to shun other classes like Gladiator or Pugilist as tanks. Also people would likely consider Archer as the only viable DD class because it has Out of Sight and thus helps let the tank hold aggro a bit better. Cookie-cutter standards just like in XI.

This is one of the lamest excuses I've ever heard. There is a fine line that seperates class abilities from class traits. A classes traits should never be crossed over to another class. You keep talking about cookie-cutter, but you'd be a fool to say it's not anything like it. Aren't you basically cutting out certain things you want from classes to obtain your own? Cookie-cutter? Sounds like it. It goes both ways.

Your argument is nothing more than another excuse. They already had this problem in the previous game. What did they do to solve it? They adjusted the abilities when crossed over through sub job, and also traits and abilities from the job it came from. What's that? You want an example? Ok!

I. RNG/THF used to deal ungodly amounts of damage via Sneak Attack -> Weaponskill. (Patched. Ranger weaponskills could no longer stack onto sneak attack. Also is seriously penalized if used as a sub job.)

II. When the update for 1 STR = 1 ATK for Two-Handed weapon wielders. They changed it to .75 to avoid massive damage gap between one-handed to two-handed. (Patched.)

III. Hasso used from Samurai only had half the effect when used as a sub-job by any other two-handed weapons. (Implemented when Hasso & Seigan first came out for Samurai.)

IV. I'll let you come up with more if you feel inclined.

With that being said, there is nothing in your argument worth approval. What would need to be done is a revision of certain abilities that would make one class far superior in terms of tank, DD, healer, etc. SE has clearly shown it is far more capable of being able to remedy their mistakes than you would dare to say.

OH! I almost forgot! Your complaint over Marauder having Intimidation? Well I remember so well that Warrior of XI had an ability that Paladin did not..........Provoke! I'm going to let you marinate on that for a second. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

[Arcell]

This is one of the lamest excuses I've ever heard. There is a fine line that seperates class abilities from class traits. A classes traits should never be crossed over to another class. You keep talking about cookie-cutter, but you'd be a fool to say it's not anything like it. Aren't you basically cutting out certain things you want from classes to obtain your own? Cookie-cutter? Sounds like it. It goes both ways.

There you go making assumptions and putting words in my mouth again. I don't want to make my own "ultimate cookie-cutter class", in fact the way I play Pug is distinctly different from how other people even in my LS play it. Regardless, I don't want something like Intimidate to be Marauder specific, thus making it THAT much harder for Glad or Pug to tank. I think anyone who is tanking should have Intimidate and anyone who's not tanking should have Out of Sight. That's one of the things put into the game to help keep aggro shifted a certain way. If you made Intimidate specific to Marauder you'd have people saying that Glad and Pug aren't viable tanks because they can't keep hate as well. If you made Out of Sight specific to Archer you'd have people saying that Lancer, Pug and Marauder aren't viable DD classes because they've lost that key enmity mitigation trait.

I don't want to see job/subjob because it is too restrictive and creates too many cookie-cutter community standards where anything else is shunned. I didn't play XI to 75 in anything but I know other people can back me up there in that if you weren't cookie-cutter class X/Y you were shunned and couldn't get a group. Any originality was stripped from the game after a point. If you were something you HAD to sub a specific job or else you sucked, that's taking it too far.

Also you clearly have no understanding of the term "cookie-cutter" if you think that "cutting my own abilities out of other classes" defines it. It means that everyone is the same, you have standards that you cannot deviate from. So far in XIV there are few cookie-cutter standards. Want a tank? You've got Glad, Pug and Marauder. Want a DD class? You've got Lancer, Pug, Marauder and Archer. Even the mages can take over each other's roles with a degree of success though some are better than others.

And how about you stop attacking me? I have not once said a single insulting word towards you and it really doesn't help your argument. An argument based on attacking another and not the issue isn't really a sound argument now is it?

[Demacia]

There you go making assumptions and putting words in my mouth again. I don't want to make my own "ultimate cookie-cutter class", in fact the way I play Pug is distinctly different from how other people even in my LS play it. Regardless, I don't want something like Intimidate to be Marauder specific, thus making it THAT much harder for Glad or Pug to tank. I think anyone who is tanking should have Intimidate and anyone who's not tanking should have Out of Sight. That's one of the things put into the game to help keep aggro shifted a certain way. If you made Intimidate specific to Marauder you'd have people saying that Glad and Pug aren't viable tanks because they can't keep hate as well. If you made Out of Sight specific to Archer you'd have people saying that Lancer, Pug and Marauder aren't viable DD classes because they've lost that key enmity mitigation trait.

I don't want to see job/subjob because it is too restrictive and creates too many cookie-cutter community standards where anything else is shunned. I didn't play XI to 75 in anything but I know other people can back me up there in that if you weren't cookie-cutter class X/Y you were shunned and couldn't get a group. Any originality was stripped from the game after a point. If you were something you HAD to sub a specific job or else you sucked, that's taking it too far.

Also you clearly have no understanding of the term "cookie-cutter" if you think that "cutting my own abilities out of other classes" defines it. It means that everyone is the same, you have standards that you cannot deviate from. So far in XIV there are few cookie-cutter standards. Want a tank? You've got Glad, Pug and Marauder. Want a DD class? You've got Lancer, Pug, Marauder and Archer. Even the mages can take over each other's roles with a degree of success though some are better than others.

And how about you stop attacking me? I have not once said a single insulting word towards you and it really doesn't help your argument. An argument based on attacking another and not the issue isn't really a sound argument now is it?

Are you guys serious? Every class had several viable subjobs for many different situations. Nobody would want a SAM/SMN because that's garbage and makes no sense, but SAM/WAR SAM/THF SAM/RNG SAM/NIN SAM/DRG and SAM/DNC were all great and each gave Samurai a completely different playstyle. Would you want a CON who insisted on tanking or have him cure/nuke instead?

If you're gonna talk about something, at least have the knowledge to back it up. I can tell you the armory system is bad because I actually took the time to play FFXIV for a few months.

Also @ Reika: drop the "go back to FFXI" nonsense. People aren't asking for FFXI-2 and if you think that you're an idiot. Ignoring everything in FFXI was a gigantic mistake by the dev team that even Yoshida admits to. I actually DID start playing FFXI again, but that doesn't mean I want the $80 I spent on a cute journal and some stupid certificate to go to waste. I actually want the "game" that came with the journal to be good some day. The armory system, market wards, all those terrible ideas are just holding its progress back.

[Arcell]

OH! I almost forgot! Your complaint over Marauder having Intimidation? Well I remember so well that Warrior of XI had an ability that Paladin did not..........Provoke! I'm going to let you marinate on that for a second. Let those juices soak into whatever that is up there in that cavity you call a head.

Oh! I almost forgot! This is not FFXI. Now say it with me: This is not FFXI. This is not FFXI. This is not FFXI.

I don't care what worked for Warrior and Paladin in FFXI, things don't work the same way in FFXIV. Our enmity system is entirely different and is undergoing changes so that it will work a bit better. Regardless, take a Marauder and a Pugilist both using only their class abilities and traits and I guarantee that Marauder will be able to hold hate better. Between Intimidate, Defender, Disorient (x3), Warmonger, Full Swing and Storm's Path there's no way the Pugilists few abilities (Taunt, Accomplice and Jarring Strike which is a conditional evade ability) could stand up to that in terms of enmity generation.