[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[XiaoMaomi]

I would love to have job/sub job system. I am disappointed with the execution of the current class system.

[Ceons]

I prefer originality over practicality any day. Anyone who makes another Rift / wow clone can burn to ashes.

Yes. Absolutely agree.

It's kind of sad, really. We finally have an MMO that gives us some actual freedom in designing our character and people are so flabbergasted by the idea that they start yelling for restrictions.

This.

If you want restrictions, have the discipline to apply them to yourself. There's no reason you can't do this. If you don't want to use the system, don't. Only use LNC abilities on your LNC if you prefer. But don't howl because others want to make a spear user that can also nuke or who use LNC ws on their GLA because the animation looks neat. You want handicaps and limitations, there is not a thing in the world stopping you from applying them to yourself in this game.

So I don't see where the argument is really. There will always be people insisting you must play a job this certain way. At least in XIV you can tell those types to shove it and still be able to get things done the way you want to. If you really want restrictions, find a group of people who think this way and hang out with them. They were really, really easy to find in FFXI...

Oh idly, I hear /dnc is the new /nin now in some circles over there, btw. I bet that stinks for the masses who leveled up ninja subjob just so they could get in parties. Now they're gonna have to level up another job just to be cool again. You really want that kinda bullshizzle to happen here? I think I'll pass.

And it could have not been said better. If you like restrictions - go ahead, no one is stopping you. But the rest of the people who are happy having a game where they do what they like and play how they want, are not interested in restrictions.

[Kimahri]

Half the people who comment are probably not even playing it now because they are acting as if this game is just the same as when it was released.

Do you not realize how much better it is now? Wow... If it wasn't for the bland taste that was left behind from release people could see with a little content that this game is just as magical and awesome as the FF games should be.

People don't change what you don't know. Let them give content and if it doesn't work, they can always go back and LIMIT your game play and go to ancient holy trinity ways. (yay for seeking for group for hours, yay for being completely dependent, yay for being utterly useless by yourself and always needing other people's time to do what you want).

Yes. It's sooooo much better now...................Wow.........Are you serious, Ceon?

I. SP/Exp gained upon defeating enemy.
II. Introduction of an aggro icon so people really know which monsters are aggresive.
III. Item Search Function

Before you go off and try to ravage the people who no longer play the game, look at the content yourself and then the thread this is regarding. You're too stupid if you think it has anything to do with what they've been talking about in this thread. Nothing has been changed in a way to make the classes seem more unique. Content isn't just guildleves, quests, missions, etc. It's also the physical content of a character in which you must accomplish first before you are to take on those missions.

The class system is junk. Just because you think it's pretty butterfllies in your stomach doesn't mean it's like that for all of us. It feels more like some bad fiber in my gut erking me into the cradle position. At least some class restriction is in order, but you're too high and mighty to agree.

According to this class system. The weapon defines the class. So why are the weaponskills allowed to be transfered? Doesn't it seem just rather odd that your class is restricted to one weapon yet you're able to use the whole range of every weapons' weaponskill? Well I don't know about you, but it seems like a bunch of bologna to me. This is one of many points of argument as to why this system sucks. Maybe, Ceon, you could try to list at least one to defend yours?

Edit: Oh, I forgot to comment on that last paragraph. This is a MMORPG not a single-player RPG. These games were developed for the sole intention of group participation. It was meant for you to find others with a common need to progress in the game. Yet you could still do a lot of stuff solo. All I did was have two characters running so I could solo my own experience and materials. If you don't like it, then go back to playing by yourself on the console.

Edit II: I'm so sorry for all these edits, but I just remembered this quote from Dreamer.

"It's kind of sad, really. We finally have an MMO that gives us some actual freedom in designing our character and people are so flabbergasted by the idea that they start yelling for restrictions."

That is completly not true. Any MMO based off a Talent Tree system allowed you freedom in designing your character's abilities and stats. Case in point would be Diablo II. This current system is abusing your right to freedom by letting you take everything to drastic measures to cope with any challenge you may face by yourself without sacrificing much. That's the reason why MMO's were/are popular because people love team-work to accomplish goals you couldn't do alone. Being able to solo things most people couldn't only established a sense of elitism. Nothing more.

[Arcell]

I. SP/Exp gained upon defeating enemy.
II. Introduction of an aggro icon so people really know which monsters are aggresive.
III. Item Search Function

You forgot:

IV. Introduction of side-quests.
V. Targeting modes (which are still undergoing changes)
VI. Re-evaluation of the item and delivery target for all local leves to properly reflect their rank.

There's more but they're more minor fixes like stacks to 99 (honestly, this was a godsend), monster sizes, new journal, battle text change.

According to this class system. The weapon defines the class. So why are the weaponskills allowed to be transfered? Doesn't it seem just rather odd that your class is restricted to one weapon yet you're able to use the whole range of every weapons' weaponskill? Well I don't know about you, but it seems like a bunch of bologna to me. This is one of many points of argument as to why this system sucks. Maybe, Ceon, you could try to list at least one to defend yours?

Honestly most weapon skills don't name a weapon except for Archer skills and one or two Marauder skills. The rest that name weapons are class specific. That's not the important part though. The important part is that while you can cross-class a lot of weapon skills, any player with half a brain won't cross-class too many as they're just not that effective or worth cross-classing. The skills that one would want to cross-class are mostly buffs, healing skills and the occasional weapon skill though mostly for incapacitation. It all comes back to how well people can actually handle the freedom given to them.

As a Pugilist I could equip Red Lotus but I don't because it's just not that great for me. There's the cross-class penalty already in place, not to mention I just don't need it over my native Pugilist skills which have no penalties on them. I could equip elemental attack spells and start nuking like crazy but I don't because I'm just not built for magic damage. The skills I do cross-class however are things like Feint, Cure II, Bloodbath (not that useful though), Taunt/Provoke if I'm tanking and honestly that's about it. Most of those are for the sake of survivability in a pinch.

It all comes down to how well a player can utilize a given system and how well they can handle choices given to them. I could use all cross-class skills and no native skills but would it be viable? Nope, that's why no one does it.

The only people who want strict restrictions are those who cannot handle freedom.

[Kimahri]

You forgot:

IV. Introduction of side-quests.
V. Targeting modes (which are still undergoing changes)
VI. Re-evaluation of the item and delivery target for all local leves to properly reflect their rank.

There's more but they're more minor fixes like stacks to 99 (honestly, this was a godsend), monster sizes, new journal, battle text change.

Thank you for including some other things implemented into the game. However these still do not help in terms of this thread's want for more unique class setups and restrictions.

The important part is that while you can cross-class a lot of weapon skills, any player with half a brain won't cross-class too many as they're just not that effective or worth cross-classing. As a Pugilist I could equip Red Lotus but I don't because it's just not that great for me.

The only people who want strict restrictions are those who cannot handle freedom.

Sorry if I cut and paste the bare essentials, but this is just more helpful to me. Why are you against restrictions if you don't even use the weaponskills on other jobs in the first place? You're basically making no sense at all. "Well I don't use them, but I don't want them restricted. You're taking away my freedom to choose!" The reason I want the restrictions is to keep the classes own weaponskills based off THEIR weapon in their own confines is because it's their ONLY weapon allowed. This is similar to the reason why I don't want DoW to use magic. They have no need for it, besides Gladiator in terms of sustaining emnity based off healing itself(or others) to an extent.

You whine about freedom yet you disregard using that freedom to use certain undesired skills? Thanks for just helping me by saying that you want the best of skills from other jobs to incorporate into your ultimate class. Quit whining about making classes more strict in terms of defining it's own class.

Maybe next time you should read more of the post besides just quoting it up as quick as possible. I said it needs "Some" restrictions, not all of it. I don't care being able to use bloodbath or whatever that stupid ability is that lets you siphon HP from a single attack. It's the more potent of the classes abilities during the higher levels I wanted restricted to class only. That also brings up the point of class traits unlocked by Guild Marks. Shouldn't be able to use on other classes. But before you say, "Well you don't have to and it's useless to anyway." let me go ahead and say this, "If it's useless as other classes, why not restrict it to class specific?"

You talk about having the freedom to choose but only choose those abilities that best help a class.....That sounds so much like a sub job system except you want all abilities to be accessable. Bull****. There was consequences in a sub job system that only allowed you to pick from one other job to obtain abilities from. If you chose /whm you were able to heal yourself yet severely let your guard down and dealt less DoT. Not to mention you had considerably less MP if you were a DD class. If you chose /war you were able to deal more DoT through double attack and berserk, yet not be able to heal yourself unless you had your own abilities that let you do so. With this system you're allowed to take the best from every class which in a sense is too overpowering and an abuse to freedom.

Again before you tell me to restrict myself and leave you alone, I say [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.] Using some basic core features used in SE's first MMO wouldn't make it a FFXI-2. When you seen turned based actions being used in FF7 it wasn't FF7-2 when FF8 used the same principle core feature. FFX and FFX-2 were of the same original storyline which prompted it a sequel. If you took FFXI and reskinned it with different classes, storyline, abilities, some new battle mechanics, and I guess graphics, it would be considered a new game. Case in point? From FF12 to FF13!!!!!

[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XIV FORUM Guidelines.]

[Arcell]

Woah there calm down buddy, no need to attack me so viciously. Are you mad because I actually put up a decent argument?

I'm not whining about anything, that's you putting words in my mouth. I'm not going to shut the hell up and I'm certainly not crying over anything lol. I'm just trying to debate my point without needless attacks against any other posters.

Just because I don't use them currently doesn't mean I think other shouldn't be able to. Honestly I could be just not be seeing something that could make a great build using some cross-class weapon skills. Others may find more use for them than I currently do.

Actually I think Guild Marks traits should be usable by other classes. If they were restricted to one class then Marauder would be the "best" tank because it has Intimidate and people would probably start to shun other classes like Gladiator or Pugilist as tanks. Also people would likely consider Archer as the only viable DD class because it has Out of Sight and thus helps let the tank hold aggro a bit better. Cookie-cutter standards just like in XI.

You brought up the one reason I'm against job/subjob. You can only pull from ONE class. Yes I'm trying to pull abilities from other classes to make my current class the best it can be. If you could pull a few skills from other classes that helped you accomplish your role better, wouldn't you?

I never said I want total freedom either, I think we could stand a few more restrictions but I still say a job/subjob system is far too restrictive. I'm fine with more weapon skills being class specific, I'm fine with a slightly larger penalty on cross-classing. I simply don't want to see them cave in to FFXI purists and put Job/Subjob back in. This is not FFXI or FFXI-2 and I certainly hope it never resembles either.

[Reika]

Woah there calm down buddy, no need to attack me so viciously. Are you mad because I actually put up a decent argument?

I'm not whining about anything, that's you putting words in my mouth. I'm not going to shut the hell up and I'm certainly not crying over anything lol. I'm just trying to debate my point without needless attacks against any other posters.

Just because I don't use them currently doesn't mean I think other shouldn't be able to. Honestly I could be just not be seeing something that could make a great build using some cross-class weapon skills. Others may find more use for them than I currently do.

Actually I think Guild Marks traits should be usable by other classes. If they were restricted to one class then Marauder would be the "best" tank because it has Intimidate and people would probably start to shun other classes like Gladiator or Pugilist as tanks. Also people would likely consider Archer as the only viable DD class because it has Out of Sight and thus helps let the tank hold aggro a bit better. Cookie-cutter standards just like in XI.

You brought up the one reason I'm against job/subjob. You can only pull from ONE class. Yes I'm trying to pull abilities from other classes to make my current class the best it can be. If you could pull a few skills from other classes that helped you accomplish your role better, wouldn't you?

I never said I want total freedom either, I think we could stand a few more restrictions but I still say a job/subjob system is far too restrictive. I'm fine with more weapon skills being class specific, I'm fine with a slightly larger penalty on cross-classing. I simply don't want to see them cave in to FFXI purists and put Job/Subjob back in. This is not FFXI or FFXI-2 and I certainly hope it never resembles either.

Most often people who favor originality are gonna get attacked in these forums.. often viciously. Job/subjob is very restrictive, and it will only serve to make one gladiator the same as the next, so on and so forth. The current system allows character skill customization to their liking, and it needs to stay that way.

The door to FFXI is still open.

[Lienn]

Most often people who favor originality are gonna get attacked in these forums.. often viciously. Job/subjob is very restrictive, and it will only serve to make one gladiator the same as the next, so on and so forth. The current system allows character skill customization to their liking, and it needs to stay that way.

The door to FFXI is still open.

Agree! People need to keep looking back and accept the new! Maybe if there weren't so much crying about how good FFXI is and how bad FFXIV is the devs could be going foward instead of double checking every system.

Isntead of asking for this game to become FFXI-2, why not going to FFXI forum and ask better graphics? Would be a much easier deal updating the models there than changing all FFXIV system to make a FFXI-2.

People need to accept the new. This game is very fun when you try and stop comparing it to FFXI.

[Reika]

Agree! People need to keep looking back and accept the new! Maybe if there weren't so much crying about how good FFXI is and how bad FFXIV is the devs could be going foward instead of double checking every system.

Isntead of asking for this game to become FFXI-2, why not going to FFXI forum and ask better graphics? Would be a much easier deal updating the models there than changing all FFXIV system to make a FFXI-2.

People need to accept the new. This game is very fun when you try and stop comparing it to FFXI.

So much truth! All they needed to do was upgrade FFXI's graphics and they wouldn't need a FFXIV... or WOULD they. perhaps it is because this is a different game, and it needs to stay different

The door to FFXI is still open (imma keep repeating this for those folk)

[Ceons]

The door to FFXI is still open

I'll help you spread the message