[dev 1032] What's wrong with job/subjob again?

[darkstarpoet1]

Lol. Yea you can equip all of YOUR classes skills as long as you don't equip a different classes skills. Lower ranks have to sacrifice skills from their class for skills from another, once you get to higher ranks, I would say about R24 or 26, you will have enough for a few from other classes. like 2 or 3. At no time can you equip every skill from every class at once....

And I cant even equip all my lancer skills at once at r18 lancer. Me believes ya need to go back and recheck things.

Oh, and i cant equip 12 if my THM skills at r44 THM

Oh, and I was actually wrong about being able to equip 2 or 3 from other classes. at R50 gladiator, you cannot fit all of your Gladiator skills + Shield skills all at the same time.

you will never be able to convince people of what you say. the reason? they don't want to believe in facts. they want to believe that a r50 can go to r1 and equip all skills to that class because it supports their argument.

i seen it is hard to handle 3 bars of skills with a controller? i use a controller and handle mine quite easily.

i seen 4-5 skills is enough? a gladiator uses that many in just buffs and pulling hate.

the truth is this game went like all other final fantasy games and went with a completely new system for the next game. the armory system is a new system and yes it can use some tweaks, but i agree completely with reika in that it is going in the right direction. this game was advertised as for the hardcore as well as casual player. if you start removing the stuff that allows the casuals to play you force them to leave. it does need more stuff for the hardcore players, but not at the expense of the other kinds of players that are still playing.

[SydeBeheln]

Seems like amongst other things, once each job is given its own uniqueness, players aren't going to be using too many skills from other classes. Besides that, its easy to just narrow the amount of skills that can be borrowed from other jobs, and increase the action cost of those skills by maybe double.

I am a big fan of hybrid classes, I think it gives players even more customization on top of everything else. I do believe it needs to be limited however.
An example I always think of is,
A marauder decides he wants to not only fill the roll of a DD, but he would also like to help increase in buffing/de-buffing as well.
By borrowing skills from the unique buffer/de-buffer class, marauder at the cost of his own DD skills, can buff out other members of his party, or even just himself.

or

if marauder wants to tank, borrowing select tanking skills from Gld. can increase his proficiency in tanking.

Obviously this was the route SE was trying to go, but forgot that not only we suffer at the expense of attribute allocation, but uniqueness as well. On top of that we are lacking a restriction to all of this, making it far too easy for players to just traverse skills from classes that should not be permitted.

Regardless, I do NOT think linear skill progression with a sub class division is what this game needs.
The originality in the system now, offers far more interesting and personal customizations that wont lead to universal skill sets(players having to combine the right sub job to even be considered for parties).

So hopefully IMO, SE will continue to adjust the current system and unlock the true potential in it.

[Reika]

You wont be able to hybrid anything, as you cannot even equip all of your own skills in one class... doubling the cost of cross-classing will make it impossible to use your own classes skills.

[SydeBeheln]

I'm not really referring to the amount of skills you can equip, but mainly that there should be restrictions to WHAT skills you can equip. The current max in skill slots does need to be increased, maybe just simply, another row on the action bar.

Thats pretty simple enough as it is. When talking about cross-classing, as you said, "doubleing the cost will impossible to use your own classes skills", is the whole idea behind what I was talking about in the first place...
There needs to be a cost as to what you give away out of your own class, in return to have something from another class.

If you want to make a "pure class" then just simply never use other skills from other classes.
The element of doubling action costs for equipping skills is just a variable, obviously there doesn't need to be such a restriction for it too work either way. Simply you could just say, "X" skill is transferable, "Y" skill is class specific.

Balancing out these many factors is the fun part of growing, and customizing something you want to play.

[darkstarpoet1]

I'm not really referring to the amount of skills you can equip, but mainly that there should be restrictions to WHAT skills you can equip. The current max in skill slots does need to be increased, maybe just simply, another row on the action bar.

Thats pretty simple enough as it is. When talking about cross-classing, as you said, "doubleing the cost will impossible to use your own classes skills", is the whole idea behind what I was talking about in the first place...
There needs to be a cost as to what you give away out of your own class, in return to have something from another class.

If you want to make a "pure class" then just simply never use other skills from other classes.
The element of doubling action costs for equipping skills is just a variable, obviously there doesn't need to be such a restriction for it too work either way. Simply you could just say, "X" skill is transferable, "Y" skill is class specific.

Balancing out these many factors is the fun part of growing, and customizing something you want to play.

i see what you mean, but the thing i was looking at is if you equip another skill from another class you are already giving up one skill from the class you are using. if i add a 3 pt ability from thm to my con i am giving up 3 of my ability points so i am giving up what i can equip. now the thing i don't like is seeing a r20 thm using cure3 knowing that is a high level spell from another class.

i wish they'd add more abilities like luminous spire is for gla that is only allowed to be used on gla. use the abilities purchased by guild marks to be only used by that class. i would also like skill level requirements like they are talking about adding for the gear. if it requires a level 20 in a class to get an ability it should be a level 20 in any other class before it can be equipped to it.

[Karvapeikko]

i see what you mean, but the thing i was looking at is if you equip another skill from another class you are already giving up one skill from the class you are using. if i add a 3 pt ability from thm to my con i am giving up 3 of my ability points so i am giving up what i can equip. now the thing i don't like is seeing a r20 thm using cure3 knowing that is a high level spell from another class.

i wish they'd add more abilities like luminous spire is for gla that is only allowed to be used on gla. use the abilities purchased by guild marks to be only used by that class. i would also like skill level requirements like they are talking about adding for the gear. if it requires a level 20 in a class to get an ability it should be a level 20 in any other class before it can be equipped to it.

I like how AP limits how many skills you can use, but currently there isn't much sacrifice done, if you choose to add self-healing abilities. In my opinion better skills should cost more AP to equip(there are some already). It doesn't make much sense to me that equipping Puncture, a R2 skill, costs as much as bloodletter, a R48 skill. Of course no one would think twice cross classing these kinds of skills, when there is no sacrifice. That said, why can you equip wide volley to any combat class? There are damn many weaponskills that doesn't make any sense used on different weapon. I understand, if you could equip Legsweep on Marauder, but Twisting Vice doesn't as axes just don't have any piercing properties. It can be thought in similiar way in spells. Magic classes don't use wands and like for no reason. It can be thought as Conjurer becomes proficient enough to cast Fire III with that magical staff/wand and immediatly picks up a sword and still be able to do it even, if you needed that wand/staff to do it a second ago.

[darkstarpoet1]

I like how AP limits how many skills you can use, but currently there isn't much sacrifice done, if you choose to add self-healing abilities. In my opinion better skills should cost more AP to equip(there are some already). It doesn't make much sense to me that equipping Puncture, a R2 skill, costs as much as bloodletter, a R48 skill. Of course no one would think twice cross classing these kinds of skills, when there is no sacrifice. That said, why can you equip wide volley to any combat class? There are damn many weaponskills that doesn't make any sense used on different weapon. I understand, if you could equip Legsweep on Marauder, but Twisting Vice doesn't as axes just don't have any piercing properties. It can be thought in similiar way in spells. Magic classes don't use wands and like for no reason. It can be thought as Conjurer becomes proficient enough to cast Fire III with that magical staff/wand and immediatly picks up a sword and still be able to do it even, if you needed that wand/staff to do it a second ago.

now this i completely agree with. if higher skills cost more ap than the lower skills this in itself would be very beneficial. i have always been curious of why wide volley is not an arc only ability since in its own description it does say release arrows.

i think on the wand thing they are using it as the wand allows the aoe where the regular weapons do not. i could imagine how worthless mages would be if they allowed a battleclass to do full aoe spells. by using the magic as a weapons class you are losing some of the ability in itself to be able to use it. i may be over thinking it though.

[SydeBeheln]

Yea you make a point that is a big issue. Something that needs to be completely over hauled is the coster skill ratio.
I could talk all day about action costs of this ability taking up too much space for this ability that I really want to use.
As this is something that I like to see, cause it gets players thinking and rotating there strategies around to meet the core reasoning for there "character build". It's simply something IMO that is not yet finished. So I wouldn't worry too much about that part of the equation just yet.

And yes cure 3 is a major example with "class specific skills" that should only be usable on a particular class.
maybe Cure 1 or cure 2 can be transferable, but with higher Action costs with higher level skills.
You bring up another great topic, is level requirement. Players need to meet the corresponding rank of the skill. R20 skill transferable to only r20 classes, and again only if it is NOT a class specific skill.

[Dreamer]

I simply cannot understand why some people here are bucking so hard against having some freedom with how their character operates.

Forget action points, forget affinities. The bottom line is that for every ability you equip from another class, that's one less ability you can equip from your current one. To be honest, the only change eI would make to the current system is that I would have cross-discipline skills cost twice as many action points. For example, a DoW would need twice as many points to equip a DoM skill, and vice versa. Speaking of which, why are all the best cross-class conj and thaum skills only 2 action points(Cure, Shell, Protect, Stoneskin, Sacrifice, etc)? That always seemed backwards to me.

The armory system is a fantastic idea, and I'm glad they went with it. Some minor tweaks can balance it without having to rebuild it like with a job/subjob system.

[kukurumei]

I simply cannot understand why some people here are bucking so hard against having some freedom with how their character operates.

Forget action points, forget affinities. The bottom line is that for every ability you equip from another class, that's one less ability you can equip from your current one. To be honest, the only change eI would make to the current system is that I would have cross-discipline skills cost twice as many action points. For example, a DoW would need twice as many points to equip a DoM skill, and vice versa. Speaking of which, why are all the best cross-class conj and thaum skills only 2 action points(Cure, Shell, Protect, Stoneskin, Sacrifice, etc)? That always seemed backwards to me.

The armory system is a fantastic idea, and I'm glad they went with it. Some minor tweaks can balance it without having to rebuild it like with a job/subjob system.

Ideas that sounds nice, sometime run into something call the real world. Hindsight is a biach. It doesn't work. reason have been long and heavy in the specifics.

If you don't understand it, you don't want to understand.