What exactly is the penalty for wearing non-optimal gear for your rank?

[Physic]

From what I understand, you are equipping an item of higher rank, and noticing that it's giving you less stats than what's listed on the item itself, correct? Of course that happens, I never said it didn't.

What you need to understand is, despite the "high decrease in stats" from the listed stats on the item to the actual stats given to you on the character sheet, that the high rank item is still comparable or better than an optimal rank item giving 100% of it's listed item stats to your character sheet.

And of course I've tested on more than just two items, the ones I mentioned were just an example I used to show how the game scales gear.



I did exactly this, and my findings were as I said in my original post. If you use gear of the same type, such as a Scouting Jacket and Harrier's Jacket, you will get the same stats from either on the character sheet.

I have even personally tested the R1 Weathered Bone Hora vs the R50 Jade Hora and as a R1 PUG, and I can say with certainty that the Jade Hora was in no way inferior despite it's massive reduction in stats from those listed to what actually is given on the character sheet.

by an large, you are wrong, and he is right. comparing bone hora is no good, because bone horas stats suck greatly for their level.
It is kind of like you say, but you are usually best off wearing something that is your level, unless the peice you are equiping is way better than everything else in its class. IE you have a really special peice of gear that even weakened, is still better. But that wont change the degradation factor at all.

basically it works like this.
your a level 10 monk, the level 10 weapon is the best weapon, unless you are comparing it to a +3 of higher rank, but the +3 level weapon is still the best weapon. The high rank weapon would however most likely beat a level 6 weapon, if you were level 10.

gear that is non favored is really bad, its a huge drop in stats, you ld be better off wearing gear like 6 to 7 levels below you usually in terms of def and evasion.

And yes i have tested it out. like i said, bone hora wasnt a good test, because it is essentially a more garbage peice of gear than anything else no matter what.
this is ingame data right now
48 pugilist
op level 50 jade hora actual stat bonus 125 attack 144 acc
op level 46 crabshell hora actual stat bonus 130 attack 146 acc.

op level 42 iron bagnaks actual 127 attack 142 acc,
so even something 6 levels lower is comparable to something only two levels higher.

right now im am perfectly leveled between the two gears, and the level 46 one is still the better of the two. The level 50 one will also degrade way faster. there is no logical reason for me to use jade unless i just cant find or hate the look of crabshell, this is accurate for most gear.

un favored is way worse
level 35 lnc
kokoroons level 35 actual defense on body 139 evasion 48
toadskin harness level 43 actual defense on body 88 evasion 44

They need to make the optimal/favored downgrade more easily seen, but its there, and its signifigant, 90% of the time you are always better off wearing something 4 to 5 levels below you level than wearing something above it. and its a noticeable difference. Going outside of favored offeres drastic penalties, and gives you only token stats.

[Rubicon]

Can anyone point to a Producer Letter, dev, or rep post that clearly explains the Optimal Rank system? Can someone post a link if such a post exists?

And is the detriment to stats clearly shown IN-GAME, where it is most important? Red numbers, red arrows, red symbols... red something! It would be nice to see the Optimal stats next to the stats you actually are receiving for comparison or implement a "not-Optimal icon" so players are aware their gear is out of rank range.

[Physic]

Can anyone point to a Producer Letter, dev, or rep post that clearly explains the Optimal Rank system? Can someone post a link if such a post exists?

And is the detriment to stats clearly shown IN-GAME, where it is most important? Red numbers, red arrows, red symbols... red something! It would be nice to see the Optimal stats next to the stats you actually are receiving for comparison or implement a "not-Optimal icon" so players are aware their gear is out of rank range.

you can see what its actually giving you by looking at your attributes when it is equiped, the stuff in the equipment/item window still shows its maxed stats, but by looking in your general attributes tab, and comparing them you can see the differences, but problem is you need to actually equip it to see the dif, and there is no color comparison for that reason, the color comparison just compares the max values of the two gears, not the actual which includes optimal and favored factors. unfortunately for stats not in that window, you can only guess, they really should make it more clear, and i think they claimed they would be, but we ll see when it happens

I dont think anything ever shows you exactly how much you lose for degraded by the way.

far as an out of gear range icon, i think that might be going too far, they have/had one for non favored, but non optimal.... well i think people have to realize themselves when they are wearing a gear that says its level 40 and they are level 25

[Dread]

by an large, you are wrong, and he is right. comparing bone hora is no good, because bone horas stats suck greatly for their level.
It is kind of like you say, but you are usually best off wearing something that is your level, unless the peice you are equiping is way better than everything else in its class. IE you have a really special peice of gear that even weakened, is still better. But that wont change the degradation factor at all.

basically it works like this.
your a level 10 monk, the level 10 weapon is the best weapon, unless you are comparing it to a +3 of higher rank, but the +3 level weapon is still the best weapon. The high rank weapon would however most likely beat a level 6 weapon, if you were level 10.

gear that is non favored is really bad, its a huge drop in stats, you ld be better off wearing gear like 6 to 7 levels below you usually in terms of def and evasion.

And yes i have tested it out. like i said, bone hora wasnt a good test, because it is essentially a more garbage peice of gear than anything else no matter what.
this is ingame data right now
48 pugilist
op level 50 jade hora actual stat bonus 125 attack 144 acc
op level 46 crabshell hora actual stat bonus 130 attack 146 acc.

op level 42 iron bagnaks actual 127 attack 142 acc,
so even something 6 levels lower is comparable to something only two levels higher.

right now im am perfectly leveled between the two gears, and the level 46 one is still the better of the two. The level 50 one will also degrade way faster. there is no logical reason for me to use jade unless i just cant find or hate the look of crabshell, this is accurate for most gear.

un favored is way worse
level 35 lnc
kokoroons level 35 actual defense on body 139 evasion 48
toadskin harness level 43 actual defense on body 88 evasion 44

They need to make the optimal/favored downgrade more easily seen, but its there, and its signifigant, 90% of the time you are always better off wearing something 4 to 5 levels below you level than wearing something above it. and its a noticeable difference. Going outside of favored offeres drastic penalties, and gives you only token stats.

Few things here.

First, the Bone Hora thing was in response to the person who requested such a test.

Second, none of my tests are based on gear that is not favorable for your class. There are big penalties for using gear that isn't favored and I never disputed that.

Third, all my tests are based on NQ versions as adding HQ into the equation makes things overly complicated. You probably are better off using a +3 a few ranks lower than your level compared to a NQ item with a higher rank.

Fourth, and this is where things get really complicated, are how weapons follow the system. Weapons aren't nearly as identical when it comes to stat distribution compared to armor. You have wide variances in things like attack power, accuracy, or in the case of PUG weapons, things like parry. The three weapons you chose as your example are a great indication of this. The Jade Hora will most likely have more parry than either of your other weapons, despite the optimal rank being higher.

An example of this weapon discrepancy I can personally add to the discussion is the comparison between Shellsplitter and Banneret Lance. On my character sheet, equipping the lance lowers my overall accuracy, however, despite being much higher in rank relative to my LNC level, it's attack still sees an increase over the Shellsplitter. If I were wrong, then the Banneret Lance would be worse at everything, but it isn't.

So for those who choose to nitpick or make things overly complicated by including NQ vs HQ, or by comparing things that aren't of the same type such as a Bronze Cuirass vs a Vintage Haubergon, my assertion still stands. You are more or less equal and the notion that you are far inferior to someone who uses rank appropriate gear is false. Play how you want and wear what you want, assuming that the equipment favors your class, you wont be gimping yourself as much as other people assume you will be.

[Pyrix]

Wait wait wait... you get a penalty for wearing something above? I thought it was "you have to be this level or higher."

[Griss]

Can anyone point to a Producer Letter, dev, or rep post that clearly explains the Optimal Rank system? Can someone post a link if such a post exists?

And is the detriment to stats clearly shown IN-GAME, where it is most important? Red numbers, red arrows, red symbols... red something! It would be nice to see the Optimal stats next to the stats you actually are receiving for comparison or implement a "not-Optimal icon" so players are aware their gear is out of rank range.

I do not think such an explanation exists other then what the npc's in the wards will tell you as vague as it might be.

Also as it stands right now the only way to see the hit to defensive/offensive and physical stats you are taking can be seen via comparing and contrasting the effects said piece has on your equip/stats page.

My general rules of thumb are as follows,

Wearing over ranked armor is "Ok" if you are with in a few ranks, there exists a grey zone where while the higher level armor's defensive/physical stat effects are not as good as they should be, but will still be slightly ahead of what you have reached optimal for. Mind you right now due to the back ground math magic, any edge you might gain due to this mechanic is rather minor.

Weapons and tools on the other hand do not generally act this way. offensive/physical stats generally tend to lag behind until optimal has been reached, and the best mileage will come from using items of the appropriate rank range, there is also the increased pace of item damage to be considered. but here again were talking shades of gray when the differences in effective stats are minor.

As far as item damage effecting performance 50-100% durability will see no change in effective stats but once you go below that you step on a rocket sled to degrading performance. You wont see the changes reflected on your stat panel, but the values are modified as far as the math magic goes.

And while i have no concrete evidence to back this up other then individual observation, I'm not all that sure that the bonuses of hq items are even active until optimal rank has been reached.

Well then that turned out to be another rambling post didn't it.

[Kirith]

I just know that equipping a helm 18 ranks higher than my actual rank actually gives me higher stats than an helm at optimal rank and i can make those helmets as if they were mono-use. Furthermore it is hilarious to receive rambling tells from r50s about how little i understand about the game or life in general.

[Rubicon]

I do not think such an explanation exists other then what the npc's in the wards will tell you as vague as it might be.

Also as it stands right now the only way to see the hit to defensive/offensive and physical stats you are taking can be seen via comparing and contrasting the effects said piece has on your equip/stats page.

My general rules of thumb are as follows,

Wearing over ranked armor is "Ok" if you are with in a few ranks, there exists a grey zone where while the higher level armor's defensive/physical stat effects are not as good as they should be, but will still be slightly ahead of what you have reached optimal for. Mind you right now due to the back ground math magic, any edge you might gain due to this mechanic is rather minor.

Weapons and tools on the other hand do not generally act this way. offensive/physical stats generally tend to lag behind until optimal has been reached, and the best mileage will come from using items of the appropriate rank range, there is also the increased pace of item damage to be considered. but here again were talking shades of gray when the differences in effective stats are minor.

As far as item damage effecting performance 50-100% durability will see no change in effective stats but once you go below that you step on a rocket sled to degrading performance. You wont see the changes reflected on your stat panel, but the values are modified as far as the math magic goes.

And while i have no concrete evidence to back this up other then individual observation, I'm not all that sure that the bonuses of hq items are even active until optimal rank has been reached.

Well then that turned out to be another rambling post didn't it.

Rambling or not, it proves the point of this thread: no one can point to a clear explanation in game or outside the game of how the Optimal Rank gear system works. It's all, "I tried this." or "So and so said that." Where is the official report if this system is so defining for FINAL FANTAST XIV?

[Aeyis]

First, the Bone Hora thing was in response to the person who requested such a test.

Second, none of my tests are based on gear that is not favorable for your class. There are big penalties for using gear that isn't favored and I never disputed that.


Fourth, and this is where things get really complicated, are how weapons follow the system. Weapons aren't nearly as identical when it comes to stat distribution compared to armor. You have wide variances in things like attack power, accuracy, or in the case of PUG weapons, things like parry. The three weapons you chose as your example are a great indication of this. The Jade Hora will most likely have more parry than either of your other weapons, despite the optimal rank being higher.

So for those who choose to nitpick or make things overly complicated by including NQ vs HQ, or by comparing things that aren't of the same type such as a Bronze Cuirass vs a Vintage Haubergon, my assertion still stands. You are more or less equal and the notion that you are far inferior to someone who uses rank appropriate gear is false. Play how you want and wear what you want, assuming that the equipment favors your class, you wont be gimping yourself as much as other people assume you will be.

I responded primairly to this:

THERE IS NO FACTUAL EVIDENCE THAT USING EQUIPMENT WITH A MUCH HIGHER OPTIMAL RANK GIVES YOU LESS ARMOR, AVOIDANCE, ATTACK, ACCURACY OR STATS THAN AN EQUIVALENT PIECE OF OPTIMAL RANK.

The above needs to be emphasized. .

Which was proven false by physics and another, so my points stands.

Also, you mention that weapons work differently, but this isnt true perse.
What you perceive as the ''same'' weapon are actually different sub types of the weapon, focusing on different stats (for example one that focusses on acc over atk).
Taking this into account it is only natural to compare different types of armor with each other.

After all we are talking about what is best for your current rank, not what is the best for your rank amongst only a single type of armor.

So comparing different types is an argument base that stands, seeing how you do so yourself, only with weapons.


As for as the notion of being far inferior to someone that does wear optimal rank equipment.
This notion holds as far as HQ or Unique (depending on the item) does not apply.
This is the sole reason why physics made use of these kind of items, to point out that sometimes higher rank items can indeed be similar in stats (or even add more) to optimal rank items.


Also, i requested a test that shows your worth in the field of theorycrafting.

In other words not some half assed test that proved that your theory could possible apply under a blue moon, but rather one that would imply that indeed,
its highly unlikely for an item of optimal rank or lower to be superior to one of higher rank.


I dont really get where you perceive to have the base needed to defend your theory tho.
Lack of a elaborate tests as well as the simple fact that only a single example is needed to prove your theory false.(which was done twice in this thread)

[Rubicon]

If what many of you are saying is true, and the benefits for wearing armor (not weapons/tools) above your rank outweighs the bad stuff, then what is the incentive for crafters to make low rank armor? Seems like a backwards concept for crafting.