Why I have no interest in Coils more specifically, T9.

[Gillionaire]

Red > Ravens Beak > Dive combo > Yellow > Lunar Dynamo > Meteor Stream > Dalamud Dive > Ravens Beak > Red > Meteor x 2 > Dalmud Dive > Ravens Beack > Yellow > Combo > Red > Ravens Beack > Lunar Dynamo > Meteor > Ravenbeak > Yellow > Meteor x2

Favor > Claw > Fire Out > Thunder/Dynamo > Fire In > Thunder > Fire out w/Iron chariot + Thunderstruck > supernova x3 (run in on 2) > T Beam > Fire in > Claw > Thunder > Divebomb(First to A, second to B) > Meteor > Divebomb > meteor > Divebomb > Dalamud Dive.


Favor > Claw > Fire Out > Thunder/Dynamo > Fire In > Thunder > Fire out w/Iron chariot + Thunderstruck > supernova x3 (run in on 2) > T Beam > Fire in > Claw > Thunder > Divebomb (First to A) > Iron Chariot > Divebomb (go to B, Save Invigorate) > Divebomb (second to B, Sprint when marker disappears and run to group) > Raven Dive (Safe to stand near) > Lunar Dynamo

I hope you're being ironic, but if you're really trying to prove a point that you have the entire fight memorized like so.. You're just helping US make the point that perhaps the fight mechanics need an overhaul

Actually the main issue with raiding in FFXIV is that classes simply don't have enough specialization tools and utility abilities.

That is true.. and imo, also part of the reason why PvP is lackluster.. Because there's not enough utility skills. Distribution of said skills is even worse which creates imbalances..

Me? I just want to clear turn 9 for to sole purpose of progressing. And I don't want to have to give up my life outside the game to do it.

Mmmm.. actually in an MMO, you kinda have to make those sacrifices if you want to go anywhere with it. It sucks, but hey, missing out on coils is not the end of the World..

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

Both randomness and scripted have pros and cons. I can think of a few times where Imdugud did nothing but heat lightning-charge (no tether-charges) and that made the fight easier. So even with randomness there is a real possibility of getting the really lucky set of mechanics and a really unlucky set of mechanics. Then ppl would be complaining the fights arent fair cuz team A got "lucky" or team A just wiped until they got the "lucky" string of mechanics.

Even randomness has it's drawbacks.

[Stanelis]

Then it just degrades into tank and spank, and dodge fest, which we already have in titan, and people don't like titan. Coil is fine as it is, even with it being a "dance", and having it memorized, it still takes effort to pull off. If they took any of that away, it wouldn't really be hard.

Take GW2 for instance, none of the fights in that game are scripted really, and none of them are all that hard, you just avoid stuff and kill the boss. Very boring when you want a challenge.

Titan is also a staple dance encounter. GW2 shares the same defect as FFXIV regarding class and abilities diversities (it is also true for wildstar).

You have to play stuff like wow BC (on private servers) if you want to remember how was raiding when it was the trend in gaming.

[Ayrie]

Kosmos:

Simplest explanation I can offer is it is far harder to manipulate/bug an encounter when the boss' skill sets are on timers.

Script and AI are the same thing.

AI is an illusion created by stacking many conditionals. If the game sees these three triggers do that. The problem with that is it can be figured out and manipulated. You could eliminate or avoid critical moves by never triggering their conditions.

A real quick example is Matt samurai genkai in FFXI. He would not start his combo until hit 3 times. Want a easy way around the fight? Know that you get 3 easy hits before he is fixing to rail you. It didn't change the outcome, but it shows how conditionals can be exploited to lower the intended difficulty.

[siverstorm]

Cerberus, who's every single mechanic is still 'Deal with Adds', 'Avoid AOEs except THAT one' (which yes we've seen before), and 'Stack on his flanks and lay on the damage'?

I don't think it's a far cry to assume that a lot of people complaining about the fights in here are just going to blindly call for nerfs because the content is "too hard" for them without wanting to put the same kind of effort into it. They want a free ride to current content (on top of better gear and echo) and don't want to spend even a fraction of the time and effort that others have put into the fight but they still want the "achievement" in their log for killing it. A lot of the responses are akin to this at this point. And the devs have responded as such by ensuing future content will be accessible to these players who don't want to put the same effort into it as others (normal mode Alexander).

Some of the complainers in here are kinda running in circles with their points too which I'm finding kinda funny. Or just openly nitpicking some quotes out of context in an attempt to make a point. Or maybe they're just trying to provoke raiders into outright saying "omg u scrubs can't figure this out? stay bad kthx" and fall back to the "toxic elitist" argument...who knows.

1) Simplify the number of mechanics to an easily memorable amount (players should not have to study like its a 100 question test) I would say no more than 4-5 mechanics
...

A good example of content they did that was good was when Titan EX first came out, it was challenging but fun, when you cleared it you had a feeling of accomplishment but it wasn't impossible.

T5, T8, T9, T10, T11, T12, and T13 have all the same exact organized memorization fight mechanics, and offer nothing different besides the name of the attack and the damage it deals, it all boils down to dodge/stack for over half of the endgame Coil content.

> Wants to see more dodge/stack mechanics, raved in a few posts about how well designed titan ex was
> All of the content that I was complaining about being too much is all just dodge/stack mechanics

?????

For the amount of time put into these posts I feel like a solid amount of progression could've gone into clearing whatever turn of coil you're stuck on.

I wonder if the normal mode alexander will still have some skill/competency checks that people will pop in and complain about (I figure it would be akin to Steps of Faith in terms of difficulty in a pug maybe a touch harder than that like T5 minus twisters or something).

[zcrash970]

snip.

You really don't even have to remember all of that. Just key things like not placing a meteor by another meteor or where to go for DBs. I don't see why everyone is saying you have to memorize or study a fight. You can watch/read a guide and get the gist of it and the PRACTICE the fight and you'll eventually clear with like minded people.

[Gillionaire]

Kosmos:

Simplest explanation I can offer is it is far harder to manipulate/bug an encounter when the boss' skill sets are on timers.

Script and AI are the same thing.

AI is an illusion created by stacking many conditionals. If the game sees these three triggers do that. The problem with that is it can be figured out and manipulated. You could eliminate or avoid critical moves by never triggering their conditions.

A real quick example is Matt samurai genkai in FFXI. He would not start his combo until hit 3 times. Want a easy way around the fight? Know that you get 3 easy hits before he is fixing to rail you. It didn't change the outcome, but it shows how conditionals can be exploited to lower the intended difficulty.

and that's why we need test servers to work out the kinks. It may be harder to make, but the polished product will be superior. SE's in-house testing team doesn't quite seem capable of catching all the bugs evident by the hotfixes every single time they roll out a patch. I get it hotfixes are inevitable from time to time, but having to do it after every single patch seems wrong.

[OMEGA_HACK]

snipped for space

I'm not saying dodge/stack mechanics are bad, I'm saying relying ONLY on them will cause problems down the road if they want to make content more challenging, but once again my words are misconstrued. Titan EX was a good when it came out as it was the first challenging bit with that style of game play, however all we have seen from coil is the same type of game play, its now old and needs a change.

And it is a far cry to assume that people want to just be rewarded for doing nothing, as NO ONE is saying they don't want a challenge. However! People are saying the challenges should vary and should test more than just the players ability dodge/stack and their internet connection reliance. So please can you point out where it was said explicitly that people want something for nothing? Are are you making assumptions? Are you making far cries? Because honestly it seems you are grasping here since you are referencing two different points entirely and trying to connect the dots that don't exist. Good try though.

[Kosmos992k]

Kosmos:

Simplest explanation I can offer is it is far harder to manipulate/bug an encounter when the boss' skill sets are on timers.

Script and AI are the same thing.

AI is an illusion created by stacking many conditionals. If the game sees these three triggers do that. The problem with that is it can be figured out and manipulated. You could eliminate or avoid critical moves by never triggering their conditions.

A real quick example is Matt samurai genkai in FFXI. He would not start his combo until hit 3 times. Want a easy way around the fight? Know that you get 3 easy hits before he is fixing to rail you. It didn't change the outcome, but it shows how conditionals can be exploited to lower the intended difficulty.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning that AI and scripting are the same. Yes AI has to function based on a set of rules - just like we do, but if it's nothing more than a fixed set of rules that trigger a response, without evaluating differing courses of action and their outcome, it's not really AI.

AI needs to be capable of responding not only to player actions and it's own state, but also needs to be able to anticipate possible responses to actions and determine which is better/worse. It also has to have a forward looking capability to predict responses and determine which course of action has the best potential outcome. I'm not thinking of Deep Blue chess playing AI here, just an ability to look at the potential responses to actions and choose the best one.

In your example, why did Matt start his combo after 3 hits? Because it was scripted, not because AI decided it was the best course of action. Of course players can exploit that kind of situation, just like we can exploit the enrage timer in Turn 2. Relying on such fixed triggers is not really artificial intelligence, though it's often described as monster AI in game descriptions. IMHO, it's only artificial intelligence if it adjusts based on player actions.

With regard to your example, the combo is triggered by a single definable condition. That is easily exploited and lacks intelligent direction. On the other hand, if the AI evaluated the situation and determined that despite the trigger making it available, using the combo would not be the best outcome, the player would be unable to exploit it so easily. That's what makes it more complex to implement and test - obviously.

[Ayrie]

A small dev team would take years to fully debug a script from exploits. It takes a player base a fraction of the time to discover them.

That deck is woefully stacked against the devs. You like new content, like I do, yah?