Fey Light in FCoB

[HBLR]

Just put Eos on and dps yourself. That way you can still help the whm with Some heals here and there. I don't know About the while to thing. Ofcourse you burn mana, tP quicker. But the fight becomes shorter as well. I think it's having to much dps in certain situations and phases. At least I think that is what they mean.

[pandabearcat]

It is mathematically impossible for 0 cost haste to ever be a dps loss.

This is pretty much 100% wrong.

It is patently obvious that increasing haste CAN lead to dps loss IF you run out of TP. Obviously if you never run out of TP, then increased haste is a dps increase, but since we're having this conversation, that means you are running out of TP.

In every rotation there are efficient TP spenders (usually: DoTs) and there are inefficient TP spenders. Generally speaking the most efficient TP spenders are on cooldown. Therefore, increasing the amount of attacks per "efficient TP spender CD" will lower your overall efficiency. Are we agreed on that?

Now, lets look at the other facts.

1. TP regen is static. Whether you use invigorate, goad, paeon etc, your TP gain regardless of haste is constant. This is obvious, because nothing reduces those cooldowns.

2. Regardless of how fast you spend your TP, IF you ever spend all of your TP, your "TP used per second" is identical regardless of how fast or when you ran out of TP.

3. Since total TP usage (assuming you run out of TP) is constant once you run out of TP, the constraint on your dps is no longer actions/section aka DPCT but rather DPTP.

4. Since total dps is dependant on DPTP, the higher TP efficiency will win out.

5. Since established before, TP efficiency goes down with haste, haste can definitely result in lower dps.

The painfully obvious solution is to have haste increase resource generation as well, but obviously that would make too much sense, and I'm happy (no I'm not) to see SE hasn't changed anything over the past year and a half since this idea was first proposed.

EDIT: One thing that I did not note, however, is the possibility of getting increased damage out of a cooldown, if you are able to squeeze in 1 more ability during a cooldown's duration. Suffice to say, generally speaking this doesn't happen enough for it to overcome the burden of heavily increased TP spending.

[Artair]

As a monk who usually runs FCoB with a NIN and BRD, I welcome our selene overlord(ess').

[Staris]

This is pretty much 100% wrong.

It is patently obvious that increasing haste CAN lead to dps loss IF you run out of TP. Obviously if you never run out of TP, then increased haste is a dps increase, but since we're having this conversation, that means you are running out of TP.
.

wrong

Your in ability to understand math is astonishing.

[Aurelinaus]

- SNIP - so much wrong cannot quote

:Facepalm:

Haste affects GCDs/min not efficiency. TP costs are not altered therefore TP efficiency is fixed on only differs from job to job and their respective optimal damage rotation. In a vacuum, differing gcds all other factors constant spending, 1000 tp in 4 min vs. spending 1000 tp in 3min followed 1 min of doing absolutely nothing would result in the same exact Dps.

Edit: and what the heck are DPCTP and DPTP?

[Menae]

This is pretty much 100% wrong.

It is patently obvious that increasing haste CAN lead to dps loss IF you run out of TP. Obviously if you never run out of TP, then increased haste is a dps increase, but since we're having this conversation, that means you are running out of TP.

In every rotation there are efficient TP spenders (usually: DoTs) and there are inefficient TP spenders. Generally speaking the most efficient TP spenders are on cooldown. Therefore, increasing the amount of attacks per "efficient TP spender CD" will lower your overall efficiency. Are we agreed on that?

Now, lets look at the other facts.

1. TP regen is static. Whether you use invigorate, goad, paeon etc, your TP gain regardless of haste is constant. This is obvious, because nothing reduces those cooldowns.

2. Regardless of how fast you spend your TP, IF you ever spend all of your TP, your "TP used per second" is identical regardless of how fast or when you ran out of TP.

3. Since total TP usage (assuming you run out of TP) is constant once you run out of TP, the constraint on your dps is no longer actions/section aka DPCT but rather DPTP.

4. Since total dps is dependant on DPTP, the higher TP efficiency will win out.

5. Since established before, TP efficiency goes down with haste, haste can definitely result in lower dps.

The painfully obvious solution is to have haste increase resource generation as well, but obviously that would make too much sense, and I'm happy (no I'm not) to see SE hasn't changed anything over the past year and a half since this idea was first proposed.

EDIT: One thing that I did not note, however, is the possibility of getting increased damage out of a cooldown, if you are able to squeeze in 1 more ability during a cooldown's duration. Suffice to say, generally speaking this doesn't happen enough for it to overcome the burden of heavily increased TP spending.

The reason haste can't lead to theoretical dps loss on an optimally played class is that you can simulate not having it by just not pushing your buttons as often.

In practice, while I admit the urge to smashy smash is often hard to supress, a good player will notice they are running low on TP and cut out their least TP efficient attacks (usually one run of the base combo, though for monks it's slowing down their rotation so they don't lose GL stacks). Since every point of TP you don't spend on TP inefficient attacks late in a fight probably corresponds to a point you spent on those same TP inefficient attacks earlier in the fight, it ends up likely being DPS neutral at worst and likely a small DPS gain at best since, as you mentioned, getting more attacks in buff windows is a DPS gain.

Also (and this isn't directed at you Panda), note that while Fey Light is theoretically at worst DPS neutral for TP classes, Fey Glow isn't the same for MP classes, specifically because of BLM. They benefit from burning through resources faster so they can generate more of them. Kinda useless for SMN though.

[Tint]

no, the reason haste is never a DPS lost is that if you staying around and waiting for tp your dmg is lower, yes. but while you are on haste your damage is higher. in the end it is the exact same damage with or without haste. but with haste your damage CAN be higher...

[Menae]

:Facepalm:

Haste affects GCDs/min not efficiency. TP costs are not altered therefore TP efficiency is fixed on only differs from job to job and their respective optimal damage rotation. In a vacuum, differing gcds all other factors constant spending, 1000 tp in 4 min vs. spending 1000 tp in 3min followed 1 min of doing absolutely nothing would result in the same exact Dps.

Edit: and what the heck are DPCTP and DPTP?

What PBC (PandaBearCat) is saying is that since your most TP efficient abilities tend to be DoTs of fixed durations that aren't impacted by haste, as your haste increases these abilities become smaller proportions of your damage. This is fine if you don't run out of TP, because you are still using them as often as possible. However, if you DO run out of TP and have to delay them to wait for a TP tick, you are losing damage that you wouldn't be if you hadn't TP starved yourself. Theoretically this shouldn't happen (because you can just slow your pace down to your unhasted levels), but if you hit a button every time you can and as a result run out of TP, it's a possibility.

DpCT is short for Damage per Cast Time. It's how much damage something does versus how long it takes to execute. Holy (200 potency) does more damage than Stone II (170 potency) to a single target, but because Holy takes 20% longer to cast and only does about 17% more damage, it's less DpCT to a single target. (This is just an example because I know the potency and cast times off the top of my head, please don't Holy single targets without a damn good reason) For any ability which is instant but on the GCD, you use your GCD as the cast time, because that's how long it locks you out of doing other stuff. There's a little more nuance in here for off GCDs and abilities which animation lock you, but the basic idea is damage per time spent executing. It's not quite the same as DPS because some abilities - DoTs - have way better DpCT than they do DPS. If I do 1 damage per potency, and a DoT does 300 potency over 10 seconds, it's only 30 DPS but 300 DpCT.

DpTP is much simpler. It's just damage per TP spent. An attack that does 200 damage for 100 TP has better DpTP than one that does 400 damage for 400 TP.

[Menae]

no, the reason haste is never a DPS lost is that if you staying around and waiting for tp your dmg is lower, yes. but while you are on haste your damage is higher. in the end it is the exact same damage with or without haste. but with haste your damage CAN be higher...

It's not, though. If you are losing uptime on your most efficient abilities, you do less damage per TP.

[Menae]

Let's put it this way:

I'm a Ninja. I Mutilate x number of times over a fight. Mutilate costs 80 TP.

You are also a Ninja in my same party. You run out of TP a few times over the course of a fight, so you get off 2 less Mutilates because you are waiting for TP ticks and can't reapply it right away, and of course you don't want to clip it because that would be dumb. This means you spend 160 less TP on Mutilate, but since we are in the same fight and swapping Goads like the awesome Ninja brethren we are, that means you have 160 more TP for other, non-Mutilate things. What do you spend that 160 TP on that gives you as much damage as 2 Mutilates do?

The answer is you don't, because the Ninja doesn't possess any attacks that both cost TP and do as much damage per TP spent as Mutilate. It's not just how much TP you spend, it's what you spend it on. That is why in practice haste can lead to a dps loss, because you use too much Aeolian Edge and not enough Mutilate.

I say again, theoretically and even in practice with merely decent play, haste is a DPS increase or at worst neutral. But to say spending 1000 TP in 3 minutes is the same as spending 1000 TP in 4 minutes, or to say it doesn't matter when you spend it, is to neglect the fact that some abilities are limited more by time than they are by TP.