Sword AND Board: Looking at Paladin in a different light

[TouchandFeel]

For a while now PLD has been classified as the "simple" tank class and that it is "boring" to play, and I will agree to a point. PLD has a lower point of entry skillwise and it is more simple when played at its most base level of Shield Oath on, Flash and Halone combo. If played this way it is very simple and easily becomes boring. However that is not all their is to PLD.

I see people say that PLD is all about their shield, but IMO this is only partially true, there is one major factor being left out here, PLD wields a sword and a shield.

Now I'm not saying this just for the point of semantics, but because by looking at the combination of the sword and the shield as a set that the PLD brings to bare, it changes the PLD from a Halone Waltzing turtle into a deadly dancer of defense and offense.

The sword+shield/offense+defense balance is manifested through Sword Oath and Shield Oath and balancing their usage to their fullest (i. e. oath dancing).
When in Shield Oath you are prioritizing your shield and defense, while in Sword Oath your focus is on your sword and offense. When you strategically weave between them you create a wonderful ebb and flow to combat where you are pulling back to protect yourself from devastating hits and then utilizing openings (whether in mechanics or through smart CD usage) to press the offensive. Shifting into Sword Oath, popping Fight or Flight+Bloodbath+Sentinel/Rampart and then unloading Spirits+Circle+Fracture is a thing of beauty.

It is this dance between offense and defense/sword oath and shield oath that I find completely changes the style and feel of PLD and makes it much more fun to play and more effective.

So as Paladins, remember we are not just stuck with a shield to hide behind, we have a sword as well and should make full use of it.

[DSaint]

You have my respect, good sir!
+1 for everything you said.

When in Shield Oath you are prioritizing your shield and defense, while in Sword Oath your focus is on your sword and offense. When you strategically weave between them you create a wonderful ebb and flow to combat where you are pulling back to protect yourself from devastating hits and then utilizing openings (whether in mechanics or through smart CD usage) to press the offensive. Shifting into Sword Oath, popping Fight or Flight+Bloodbath+Sentinel/Rampart and then unloading Spirits+Circle+Fracture is a thing of beauty.

This could be further enhanced if oaths were put oGCD. 5 sec oGCD would be cool, shared between oaths.

[Kerwin]

Why did I think with that title that you were going to bend someone over your shield and paddle their behind with the broad side of your sword?

Sorry just having a random moment here...

[VargasVermillion]

I can understand where you are coming from but in a lot of the more serious encounters switching oaths doesn't present much opportunity and you also gotta consider the mp costs and tp costs when throwing in riot combo, at this point it's more viable for a warrior to swap in an out of defiance than it is for a PLD to switch oaths throughout a fight.

My hopes are that the new skills being added to heavensward will lean paladin in to the direction of the stance dancing tank. That way WAR can be a resource builder/spender (wrath stacks), DRK can be resource management (MP) and PLD as the stance dancer.

[TouchandFeel]

@Vargas

I agree that Oath dancing is not always going to be viable in all the content and that sometimes it is just best to turtle up and focus primarily on agro and defense. For example if you are speed running or doing large trash pulls and having to flash spam, best to just stay in ShO.

What I was really trying the get at is that Oath dancing is a major tool in the PLD toolbox that is often overlooked when utilizing it at the right time in the proper content makes PLD way more effective and way more fun to play.
If someone is bored because all they are doing is sitting in shield oath and 1-2-3ing, then they are missing out and under utilizing their abilities as a PLD.

I find that most content, if not all, outside of some of the more "hardcore" stuff it is very viable to Oath dance, particularly in boss fights where there are long casts and other such pauses to go on the offensive with SwO. Also utilizing your more powerful CD's like Sentinel and Hallowed as damage buffers to then switch over to SwO and go all out for the duration of the CD. More often than not I end up using Hallowed as an offensive skill for bosses where I switch to SwO and immediately pop it and FoF to get that little extra damage because a lot of times I don't need it as an "oh $#1! button".

Knowing when and where to Oath dance and getting the timing and cadence down for it is part of the skill and challenge involved with it, which are two things I often see people say PLD just doesn't have.

Also I agree that I would like to see PLD get more empowered to be able to Oath dance with the expansion, that and better party/raid utility. SE please make Cover better!

[VargasVermillion]

A lot of the points you made are stuff that I try to do as often as possible, but you gotta consider in more serious content where extra damage is important switching oaths may not be worth it even if you do time it correctly.

You gotta remember that each oath takes up a GCD to swap as well as mp, depending on how often you do this you'll be using riot combo more which will also affect damage and tp over time.

On tank swap encounters (where you're most likely to oath swap anyway) there's always that chance of taking hate back off them since you only have one damage combo essentially. turning defiance on and off doesn't interrupt WARs combos or affects the GCD so it's still more viable for a warrior to go in an out of tanking stance than for PLD to do so. As it stands currently you are either in sword oath or shield oath for any significant amount of time, not really 'dancing' which is unfortunate. Most PLDs trying to push their numbers will just tank the boss in SwO if their group is capable.

So in the end would you get that much of a dps bonus after considering all these factors?

[Izsha]

While stance dance is always important, to me (and many others) it doesn't make the job any less boring.

Sword oath: 1,2,3, spirits, scorn, CDs as needed.
Shield oath: 1,2,3, spirits, scorn, CDs as needed.

the fact that the effects of both stances is completely passive (extra auto attack vs perma 20% damage reduction) prevents it from being it more interesting. If there's no active change then how can it become engaging when it's just passive effects?

I always applaud encouraging stance dance, but that's for both tanks and it is often overlooked for both tanks. the high end tank meta has already shifted hard into dps mode and using tank stances similarly to a temporary defensive cooldown, not as a way to tank.

I can appreciate then sentiment, but I can't really agree with the details because pld does virtually the same thi ng regardless of stance. Hard for me to envision that as terribly interesting.

[Ashkendor]

Yep. The oath dance definitely makes Paladin a lot more fun. I've been tanking bosses in dungeons in sword oath for quite awhile now (even before I swapped to a STR build, though the STR build definitely makes it easier to hold hate over well geared DPS) and I keep trying to find more places to weasel out of Shield Oath in endgame content without driving my static's healers bonkers. I could be more aggressive, but I don't want to stress them out. xD

I wish Paladin had a non-enmity combo, though. I go into 24 man raids wanting to OT. I don't like MT'ing. I would rather ensure that adds are picked up when they need to be and in my experience about 50% of tanks in DF can't be bothered to do it. I end up MT'ing a lot anyway because of the other tanks having either lower ilevel weapons or full fending gear. Overall, I have a much easier time OT'ing on warrior because I can just spam the Maim combo.

[VargasVermillion]

I can appreciate then sentiment, but I can't really agree with the details because pld does virtually the same thi ng regardless of stance. Hard for me to envision that as terribly interesting.

Well the idea is that you have to time when you swap oaths during encounters, there are a few holes as most encounters you are either going in SwO or ShO, not really swapping unless it's a tank swap fight but then there are more factors to consider.

[TouchandFeel]

@Vargas

As I said, knowing when and in what content to swap Oaths is part of the skill and challenge involved.

In the instances you are talking about, no it probably would not be a good idea to try swapping between oaths but there is still a lot of other content where it is viable.

Yes swapping Oaths costs some MP and is on GCD, but again being smart about swapping is part of knowing how to properly do it. Jumping back and forth between Oaths to where you burn out your MP is not the way to go, you plan, look for or make openings here and there and then move to the offensive while you can and then swap back to the defensive. If you time and line things up with your other abilities properly you can do some nice snippets of burst damage, at least for a tank, and yes this does give an increase in damage over staying in ShO and 1-2-3ing when done properly.

Honestly, I don't understand why you are arguing against me as nothing I have stated goes contrary to what you have said and it really seems that we are more in agreement than disagreeing about things. You even admitted to doing much of what I have said, which is good. This post was more for the people that see PLD as just a boring old 1-2-3 spammer with no challenge, skill or depth to it. I'm just poining out that there is more to PLD that they could use to enhance their playing of the job.

@ Izsha

The challenge and fun is in the when,where and how, not the what.
Knowing when to swap Oaths or creating openings for yourself by padding your defense at the right time to make up for the decrease in defense from swapping. Timing and lining up CD's and abilities so you able to maximize the fact that all your attacks are now not taking a 20% reduction in damage (its not just the extra auto attack that increases your damage, its also the fact that you don't have a damage reduction on you.)
However if you look at it as just doing the same thing, yeah you might not have fun.