300 DPS WAR - How are you pulling this number?

[Feylie]

Again, why does tank swapping lower DPS? There should be a slight gain from proper unchained usage and vengeance.

Yeah, that's why we have WAR tanking the adds in P3, because Vengeance+Unchained+Berserk is silly, helps kill them faster. Fight's pretty much over by the time it's coming back up.

[Felorr]

I already go HAM. Pull in Sword Oath, stay in Sword Oath. Zero tank swaps. I take all Rev's. Our WAR is literally an extra DPS (besides Bennu).

There's no Potato/Tomato about it. If you want the fastest clears, you do it the most efficient way.

Nail on the head. You get the most out of all 8 players by having your tanks manage brand in the last phase and putting healers and ranged in the fountains. If youre trying to move the boss around there will inevitably be dps loss from tanks and melee (even if it is marginal). There shouldn't be a need to tank swap thanks to HG, but if something goes wrong and you know you'll need your warrior OT to take a revelation hit, you provoke and unchained for it and your paladin just takes it back after.

[SirTaint]

Yeah, that's why we have WAR tanking the adds in P3, because Vengeance+Unchained+Berserk is silly, helps kill them faster. Fight's pretty much over by the time it's coming back up.

The silly assumption you are making is that a WAR needs Defiance up to tank Phoenix for the 10 second swap for Revelation.

At worst the DPS are missing an AA. Every melee has a gap closer and fountains never pop far from the starting point. Nothing more the a BLM pausing for half a GCD to position for the fountain.

From a tank DPS standpoint a tank swap doesn't hurt DPS at all.

[Feylie]

The silly assumption you are making is that a WAR needs Defiance up to tank Phoenix for the 10 second swap for Revelation.

At worst the DPS are missing an AA. Every melee has a gap closer and fountains never pop far from the starting point. Nothing more the a BLM pausing for half a GCD to position for the fountain.

From a tank DPS standpoint a tank swap doesn't hurt DPS at all.

Again, why does tank swapping lower DPS? There should be a slight gain from proper unchained usage and vengeance.

The contradiction is real. You're only arguing with yourself at this point.

We already said we don't move the boss to the fountain.

[SirTaint]

The contradiction is real. You're only arguing with yourself at this point.

We already said we don't move the boss to the fountain.

That's not a contradiction. Proper unchained usage is a DPS increase. It also requires dropping defiance when unchained is over.


If anything you are grasping at straws at this point.

I called the strategies potato/tomato and you insist yours is better. I'm still trying to find the DPS loss in moving the boss 5 steps vs having casters move.

[Ehayte]

Paladin pushing maximum dps while maintanking is similar. Sitting here typing this is actually making me second guess how much "easier" it is for paladin. Its really no different...

Its still different, you have a DoT to manage (applying over multiple targets, clipping/not clipping), using SE/BB/SP to maintain aggro, do dps, debuff the mobs defense, debuff the mobs offense, and you have Internal, Zerk, and Unchained to manage as opposed to just FoF. Also, Zerk comes with a pacify that can screw you with less than perfect communication or timing (tank swaps, trying to IB while pacified) its not crazy-hard but its another thing to think about; whereas FoF is just a "pop it when you can" CD that really doesn't need to be thought about. Also, PLD's defense operates completely outside of it's offense - you will ALWAYS be applying Halone anyways, and your defensive buffs are all off GCD, so you don't need to consider your offense at all.

With a WAR, you have to operate at least somewhat in the scope of your offense to get the best out of your defense, see: IB management. You always want IB for every tank buster if you can, which means you have to be infuriated for it. Which means saving infur or building stacks with an end-point in mind. Build stacks too soon and you are sitting on either an Unchained popping off or an extra 300 potency non-defiance-nerfed attack in IB for longer than you need. Build stacks too late and you are losing 20% mitigation on a huge hit. So, like I said, you either need to get good at timing those stacks, or have an infuriate on stand-by, which also means losing a free IB or popping unchained sooner. The longer you stay infuriated not using the stacks the more DPS you are losing.

DPS-wise, Paladin is exponentially easier than WAR.

[Ehayte]

That's not a contradiction. Proper unchained usage is a DPS increase. It also requires dropping defiance when unchained is over.

Yeah but you can unchained while not tanking... Becoming the main tank doesn't magically give you the ability to unchain, unless your PLD is horseshit and hasn't built proper enmity to hold over you going into defiance for 10-12 GCDs.

Vengence is a pitiful dps increase against a single target.

[SirTaint]

Yeah but you can unchained while not tanking... Becoming the main tank doesn't magically give you the ability to unchain, unless your PLD is horseshit and hasn't built proper enmity to hold over you going into defiance for 10-12 GCDs.

Vengence is a pitiful dps increase against a single target.

Right, where did I say otherwise?

Unchained is used three times in T12. The most important is with the initial 3 Bennu during phase 3.

[Ehayte]

Again, why does tank swapping lower DPS? There should be a slight gain from proper unchained usage and vengeance.

Right, where did I say otherwise?

You said there is a DPS gain from using Unchained, then you said that a WAR shouldn't be in Defiance to tank Phoenix. And then you mentioned a DPS gain during a tank swap by using vengeance and unchained. You certainly couldn't mean that you would turn on defiance and unchained after you come off of tanking, so by process of elimination you are saying that you should switch into defiance to go unchained after you provoke. My point being is that there would be a slight DPS gain from using Unchained even if you aren't tanking - you don't need a tank swap to use Unchained, and a tank swap would probably lower DPS because of the transitional 2-3 GCDs of the PLD not attacking so that you can cement enmity.

You aren't totally off-base, and I would say it really depends on the group for which is better (moving Phoenix or not), you are just confusing the point by implying contradictions.

However, this thread is about WAR DPS, not overall group DPS on T12, so....

[Felorr]

However, this thread is about WAR DPS, not overall group DPS on T12, so....

Yes, and higher overall group dps will inflate individual numbers, WAR included. So if we're discussing maximizing WAR dps, we need to consider maximizing the group number as well. That being said, any strategy that inflates one person's dps while hindering the group's total number is, in my opinion, wrong. So I believe we're on the right track by accounting for raid damage.