Fix Sumnmoner

[AreeyaJaidee]

I'm confused. Do you want SMN to be a great single target DPS or a great AoE class? I've been getting signals that you want both. Don't compare to BLM.

Please explain how you could be confused with this. BLM is fast direct DMG aoe and single target plus infinite mp, SMN is damage over time with slow ramps aoe and single target with finite mp.

Due to the pace of battle in most ffxiv encounters, slow ramps are not optimal for the majority of the game. So why have a job that's only optimal in a minority of encounters? SMN needs faster DMG application, the DPS isn't the total issue, its the application and dispersion of damage over time that's the issue combined with some imbalanced mechanics like Garuda being favored for contagion.

Also, what's the point posting in here if all you have to add to the conversation is useless personal bias? Were not here to debate blm, the thread is about smn. There's no reason smn as a caster shouldn't get comparable aoe and single target dps as long as its filling its niche, which is damage over time.

[Viviza]

Awww really, a constant barrage of 1.5-2k is still good for a healer class ^^

It's also a lie. My WHM at i130 has holy hit for 820-860 as a baseline. I also only have the MP for ten casts total.

Holy is a great spell with solid damage output but let's not claim silly things.

[Jranmaia]

Due to the pace of battle in most ffxiv encounters, slow ramps are not optimal for the majority of the game. SMN needs faster DMG application.

This is another valid concern. As much as I dont like to keep saying look how WoW does it, WoW does have some perfect solutions that its implemented over its years to combat alot of issues like this. Unholy DK's being what springs to mind they can instantly apply their DoTs with Outbreak and they use Festering Strike to keep buffing the duration of the DoTs until they can use Outbreak again. Im not saying use this solution just pointing out this is an example that removes the ramp up on single target.

At least with something similar to Outbreak on a medium cooldown SMN wouldnt have to spend best part of 9seconds doing no damage at the start of a fight, when a boss returns from a phase change, when an add spawns that you cant bane etc while a BLM is instantly blowing things up.

[pandabearcat]

Ah, hello. Its nice to see SMN is about where it used to be =D

I think SMN mana issue is more important than the ramping issue. WoW has many classes that have slow ramp up but it works. They are not the classes that you bring for AoE burst.

[Jranmaia]

Ah, hello. Its nice to see SMN is about where it used to be =D

I think SMN mana issue is more important than the ramping issue. WoW has many classes that have slow ramp up but it works. They are not the classes that you bring for AoE burst.

Problem is most endgame situations where there is AoE you DO need burst, and with only having 4 DPS spots in a raid you dont have the luxury usually of being able to take both a SMN and BLM. With BLM bringing superior dps in most single target cases, incredible burst AoE and can even sustain AoE due to having unlimited MP instantly makes them more desirable, and MNK/NIN offer more damage and utility than SMN and DRG just flat out more dmg and BRD is pretty much mandatory for lot of groups especially learning ones, SMN has no real reason to be taken.

[Akiza]

Ah, hello. Its nice to see SMN is about where it used to be =D

I think SMN mana issue is more important than the ramping issue. WoW has many classes that have slow ramp up but it works. They are not the classes that you bring for AoE burst.

WoW classes are balanced overall and the classes that have slow ramp up have 50% more potency than direct damag classes to compensate for the slow application of Damage. With the way Summoner is balanced against the Black Mage they should have instant application of DoTs, Bane should hit unlimited targets nerby, Shadow Flare should be massive potency AoE Bursts and consumes an Aetherflow stack. Enkindle's cool down should be removed and consume in Aetherflow stack. Tri-disaster should be a medium potency AoE bursts.

[Trespar]

I like the idea of making Spur restore MP when our pet deals skill damage. (This way, it won't affect SCHs.)

Removing the Bane target limit.

Also, re-purposing Tri-disaster as an AoE filler to replace Blizzard II as our AoE filler, because Blizzard II blows and isn't even an ACN/SMN spell.

Lower Enkindle cooldown just makes sense, because it really isn't strong enough to warrant that 5 minute cooldown.

Other than that, I really don't think we need more.

I'm not going into the pet vs pet debate, because quite frankly, I don't care.

[Sanguisio]

so what if your WHM is i130

My WHM crits all the time and it hits for 1.5-2k, gtfo

[pandabearcat]

WoW classes are balanced overall and the classes that have slow ramp up have 50% more potency than direct damag classes to compensate for the slow application of Damage.

This is simply not true. DoTs are nothing special - they are literally just the same as high DPCT "nukes" that simply take a long time to resolve. Classes are balanced around total DPCT - dots are an extension of this.

The only difference that their damage profiles are inverted. BLM has a damage cycle of High first, then nothing. SMN has a damage cycle of mid to high to mid to high, where "high" is one complete DoT cycle, and "mid" is where you have to reapply dots. Obviously certain scenarios will prefer a frontloaded cycle, but there is no necessity nor does it make sense for "ramp up" classes to do more damage overall. That is simply not how balance works.

[AreeyaJaidee]

This is simply not true. DoTs are nothing special - they are literally just the same as high DPCT "nukes" that simply take a long time to resolve. Classes are balanced around total DPCT - dots are an extension of this.

The only difference that their damage profiles are inverted. BLM has a damage cycle of High first, then nothing. SMN has a damage cycle of mid to high to mid to high, where "high" is one complete DoT cycle, and "mid" is where you have to reapply dots. Obviously certain scenarios will prefer a frontloaded cycle, but there is no necessity nor does it make sense for "ramp up" classes to do more damage overall. That is simply not how balance works.

Blm is high sustained DPS both aoe and single target... Because of the infinite mp.

Look at it this way, if SE took away umbral and astral mechanic from blm and their aoes only hit 4/mobs total you would have a smn without a pet that does more DMG per hit.

The advantage is ridiculous. Smn brings nothing that compliments or even competes with blm. So it stands to reason that if one caster is superior to another in even utility and DPS aoe/single target then there's no reason for the weaker caster to even exist.

AFAIK game devs seem to fail hard at making dot classes ingeniously work without botching or gimping them, and pet jobs notoriously get the same treatment. So smn is getting gimped on two levels of derp.


This issue is real. Non smn and even less experienced smn will come into every smn post and made proof less statements that these requests are unneeded and blown out of proportion. The facts are being stated by ppl that play the job since its been out and they more or less agree that various issues exist with smn. Its not just unneeded nitpicking. The job is broken at the mechanics level. Yes it still is functional, but far from worthwhile, original, or optimal.

Side note: I have a titan egi with almost 12k HP and I play smn in end game... But my titan pet serves little to no purpose in endgame. Why? Because ppl cry that titan being able to tank like a real tank is op. I call BS, if the mechanic exists in the pets role and that's how me and friends want to do content then that should be our choice. I mean come on there's a video of 7 wars and 1 sch clearing t13, why is that possible and I can't tank higher content than a HM dungeon or primal with titan? Its bs