Sword AND Board: Looking at Paladin in a different light

[VargasVermillion]

My point is that what you are saying makes sense but in most cases it just doesn't happen because you are either in SwO or ShO, there are practically no cases you'll be swapping unless there is a tank swap mechanic which most PLDs would swap oaths in anyway.
Basically it doesn't change anything that PLDs already do and it won't until some other mechanic involving the oaths is introduced. PLD looking to do more damage as MT just tank in SwO anyway.

[Wintersandman]

I would be curious what bosses accommodate stance dancing as well as what would be the dps benefit with Oath's being on the GCD. If you go ShO 1,2,3 SwO 1,2,3, ShO. Are you in Sword Oath long enough to make up for the difference in changing stances. You have to make the switch worth while otherwise you could be potentially negatively impacting your dps.

[TouchandFeel]

@Wintersandman

You are not just swapping between oaths, comboing and the swapping again. That would be more detrimental than helpful and you would burn through your MP very quickly.

You swap intelligently when you can benefit the most from pressing the offense without detracting much if any from defense. During some boss fights there are pauses in which the boss stops attacking due to a long cast or a phase change, etc. That is one example and probably the easiest time when swapping over to SwO for a bit yields benefits to damage with very little to no loss to defense.

The shortest time you would every really swap to SwO for is a bit over 10 sec and that is if you were swapping popping Hallowed and swapping back as soon as Hallowed was done. In that time you could do 1 full Halone Combo, a Cirlcle, a Spirits and probably squeeze in a Fracture. All of those are now doing more damage since the don't have the 20% debuff from ShO and then on top of that you get the added auto-attacks, so yes it more than makes up for 2 gcds.

[Synestra]

I wish Paladin had a non-enmity combo, though.

This is the biggest issue atm imo. When tank swapping you really cant go all out after stace change as its pretty common to ripoff hate after one combo unless you use fracture of SS to give other tank global or two headstart. I really REALLY hope we see OT combo in expansion so we can go nuts straight after tank swaps and generally pewpew harder when OT:ing :3

[Shurrikhan]

This is the biggest issue atm imo. When tank swapping you really cant go all out after stace change as its pretty common to ripoff hate after one combo unless you use fracture of SS to give other tank global or two headstart. I really REALLY hope we see OT combo in expansion so we can go nuts straight after tank swaps and generally pewpew harder when OT:ing :3

Tbh Fracture, SS, or a Riot Blade does seem fine for this. Any combo added probably won't be 'OT' so much as just having higher bonus damage (like Storm's Eye), rotational mitigation, or highest direct damage albeit at lesser enmity (which will then become the only combo used if you've a decent enmity lead even as MT, unless phys. dmg. is somehow high enough that the RoH mitigation is somehow essential).

Edit: I'm not at all saying that Paladin shouldn't have more abilities, but anything made isn't really going to see its use in that light, and those swap-breaks aren't enough of your time, nor are we under-tooled enough, to warrant a combo for that sake alone or even primarily. Speaking more broadly as well, I'd just really like to see those new combos feel like more than just a shortening or a copy of the warrior combos, nor as ability-bloated (1-2-3 and 4-5-6) as DRG combos, though I feel like just about anything, if light and versatile, would really help out PLD gameplay. *Shrug*

[Shurrikhan]

I would be curious what bosses accommodate stance dancing as well as what would be the dps benefit with Oath's being on the GCD. If you go ShO 1,2,3 SwO 1,2,3, ShO. Are you in Sword Oath long enough to make up for the difference in changing stances. You have to make the switch worth while otherwise you could be potentially negatively impacting your dps.

Biggest thing to keep in mind is ending the combos, oGCDs, Fracture, and the simple fact that you will have to swap back to Shield... HG will last you 4 GCDs, so we'll start there (pop HG, swap (1st GCD), 3 more GCDs, swap back as HG drops (5th GCD).

5 GCDs w/o Oath-Swap
150+200+260+150+200 x .8 = 980 x .8 = 768
<Swap>+150+200+260+<Swap Back> + (10s AAs) = 610 + ~150 = 760

Now with oGCDs:
150+200+260+150+200+300+250 x .8 = 1530 x .8 = 1224
<Sword>+150+200+260+250+300+<Shield> + 10s AAs = 1160 + ~150 = 1310

So you break even at 3-4 AAs, 3 abilities (1 RoH combo) and 1+ oGCD. No oGCDs and not enough SS / not lucky enough timing to fit in 4 AAs, and it's equal to staying in Shield.
Edit: SS applying to AAs won't likely be til Heavensward though, so useless idea for now.

Now a little more than a full HG:
6 GCDs:
150+200+260+150+200+260+300+250 x .8 = 1770 x .8 = 1416
<Sword>+150+200+260+210(Frac)+300+250+<Shield> + (12.5s AAs) = 1370 + ~200 = 1570

7 GCDs (not really stance-dancing at this point... more like null-damage phases):
150+200+260+150+200+260+150+300+250 x .8 = 1920 x .8 = 1536
<Sword>+150+200+260+150+240(RB)+300+250+<Shield> + (15s AAs) = 1550 + ~250 = 1800
___________________________________________________________________
Edit: Following some advice from others ---
Using swap before HG, slightly less safe but far more practical if at all geared:
4 GCD:
150+200+260+150 x .8 = 760 x .8 = 608
150+200+260+<Swap Back> + (<9s AAs) = 610 + ~150 = 760

Definitely a more substantial bonus, even without including oGCDs or short/non-combos (3+Fracture, 3+FS-RB, SW, CoS)

[zeroaru]

<snip>.

Some fights are hazy on the whole oath dancing thing - especially if phases get pushed a too fast by DPS and certain attacks/mechanics come earlier than you'd like. In others it works, I've been running T9 as pld, I sit in Sword oath unless I know R-Beak is coming or we're about to transition - the CDs I have available are adequate for surviving without Shield Oath outside of big hitters. I use awareness off CD because i've been taken out by too many crits to bother counting.

I've started using PLD in end game after hitting 50 a few weeks back, already fully geared since I'm a main warrior but learning a new class has been fun. The thing I love about PLD is the utter utility, being able to use the off GCD Stun as a secondary cool down in trash pulls etc etc. Utility on tap is nice.

[Dyne_Fellpool]

I've started using PLD in end game after hitting 50 a few weeks back, already fully geared since I'm a main warrior but learning a new class has been fun. The thing I love about PLD is the utter utility, being able to use the off GCD Stun as a secondary cool down in trash pulls etc etc. Utility on tap is nice.

Wait what? Did you mean Warrior? Because the PLD stun is on the GCD, with a fairly hefty TP cost to boot.

[TouchandFeel]

@Shurrikhan

I find it better to swap Oaths then pop HG as it means you don't use up that first gcd with an oath swap. You might get hit by an auto-attack or two but those can be pretty negligible damage.

Also, two other potential things to keep in mind. First if you stack FoF and BldBth with the Oath swap you will increase your gains. Second you can time the oath swaps so you do it during a time in which you wouldn't be hitting the target/boss/etc anyways, such as when you have to move out out of an aoe or the target moves to another position and you have to go to them. That also can help minimize any loss of dps due to losing a gcd from the swap.

The calculations are pretty good, although they change if you factor in the stuff listed above, but also don't forget the damage ticks from Circle and Fracture, iirc those are affected by the ShO damage debuff as well and FoF too I think, been a while since I last checked that.


I feel that a lot of people are getting bogged down on their definition of "stance/oath dancing", so let's get past the semantics of the term and instead just call it strategic oath swapping.

[Wintersandman]

snip.

Shurrikhan and you highlighted my points exactly. Battle conditions have to be perfect to make oath dancing worth while. For me personally I have to be able to be out of the respective oath for an extended period (longer than 10 seconds). Sure you 'may' be able to squeeze in 10% damage but timing, aoes, etc all have to be perfect. I am far from a perfectionist and most tanks I see are far from that as well. If Oath's were oGCD and didn't interrupt combo's it would make more sense. But as it stands for real gains you would have to make it longer than 10s.

Edit: This is also ignoring potential lag.