Community Effort: NIN and Mudra System

[Callinon]

I still want to know how this made it past testing. It seems like this was only tested in their offices in Japan and not everywhere else.

That's exactly how it gets past testing, and the reason why beta testing is a good thing that should be done.

Probably the best way to handle this is to remove the server from the ninjutsu entirely. The mudras themselves should be entirely handled by the client and then one packet containing the completed (or botched) ninjutsu is sent to the server.

So currently this is how it's handled:

Client executes: Ten
Send packet containing Ten
Server received Ten
Server responds and sends acknowledgment packet
Client registers: Ten

Client executes: Chi
Send packet containing Chi
Server received Chi
Server responds and sends acknowledgment packet
Client registers: Chi

Client executes: Ninjutsu
Send packet containing Ninjutsu
Server received Ninjutsu
Server responds and sends acknowledgment packet
Client registers: Raiton

Instead how about this:
Client executes: Ten
Client registers: Ten
Client executes: Chi
Client registers: Chi
Client executes: Ninjutsu
Send packet containing Raiton
Server received Raiton
Server responds and sends acknowledgment packet
Client registers: Raiton

One packet containing the completed ninjutsu (in this case Raiton) that only has to make one round trip instead of three. This allows the player to input their ninjutsu literally as fast as the client will allow them to without having to wait for the server to respond and without having to deal with network latency.

[Velhart]

snip

I completely agree that the mudra input should be client side. It does come with it's own complications however. The system can be easily exploited by players and can be used to cheat/take advantage of the job. You could easily make third party buttons that give you the ninjitsu already to cast instead of having to use the inputs. Which kind of brings it into the system should just be completely reworked or you can weave abilities in between.

I won't say I know the best solution, but SE really needs to make some major change to this job.

[Callinon]

I completely agree that the mudra input should be client side. It does come with it's own complications however. The system can be easily exploited by players and can be used to cheat/take advantage of the job. You could easily make third party buttons that give you the ninjitsu already to cast instead of having to use the inputs. Which kind of brings it into the system should just be completely reworked or you can weave abilities in between.

I won't say I know the best solution, but SE really needs to make some major change to this job.

But you can do that now. Either with in-game macros or gaming keyboard macros. It isn't a good enough reason, imo, not to do it.

[Velhart]

But you can do that now. Either with in-game macros or gaming keyboard macros. It isn't a good enough reason, imo, not to do it.

Not true in efficiency terms. The mudras right now ultimately get submitted to SE's servers and back to us. So making macros, the process is still going to SE, actually even slower since it is reading the macro lines, which is why no one macros mudras. The same for programmable keyboards. The keyboard will not recognize the 0.5sec cool down programmed to it when mudra lags or has a delay, not making it a reliable feature to use. Right now, the best way to performing mudra is manually as SE intended.

If it was client side, it simply is a program that if you hit the combination of buttons, it only makes the ninjitsu appear, and only the ninjitsu ability itself is inputted into SE's servers. So someone can easily make a 3rd party button that already has the ninjitsu ability unlocked, completely taking away the need to make mudra combinations. I'm not saying there is not a solution to prevent this, but making mudra client side definitely has it's share of problems.

[Callinon]

Not true in efficiency terms. The mudras right now ultimately get submitted to SE's servers and back to us. So making macros, the process is still going to SE, actually even slower since it is reading the macro lines, which is why no one macros mudras. The same for programmable keyboards. The keyboard will not recognize the 0.5sec cool down programmed to it when mudra lags or has a delay, not making it a reliable feature to use. Right now, the best way to performing mudra is manually as SE intended.

If it was client side, it simply is a program that if you hit the combination of buttons, it only makes the ninjitsu appear, and only the ninjitsu ability itself is inputted into SE's servers. So someone can easily make a 3rd party button that already has the ninjitsu ability unlocked, completely taking away the need to make mudra combinations. I'm not saying there is not a solution to prevent this, but making mudra client side definitely has it's share of problems.

I see what you're saying and you're not wrong. I'm just not sure I care.

The possibility that someone will find a way to exploit the system to do their ninjutsu really fast is extremely minor when compared to maintaining a design we know to be flawed. Mr. Ninja McJazzhands here would still be subject to the 20 second cooldown, so it's not like this lets him do something really degenerate. And if the client won't accept inputs any faster than, let's say, every 0.1 seconds? It's still nearly half a second for each ninjutsu which is perfectly reasonable for a normal person with normal non-jazz hands.

[DoctorPepper]

I see what you're saying and you're not wrong. I'm just not sure I care.

The possibility that someone will find a way to exploit the system to do their ninjutsu really fast is extremely minor when compared to maintaining a design we know to be flawed. Mr. Ninja McJazzhands here would still be subject to the 20 second cooldown, so it's not like this lets him do something really degenerate. And if the client won't accept inputs any faster than, let's say, every 0.1 seconds? It's still nearly half a second for each ninjutsu which is perfectly reasonable for a normal person with normal non-jazz hands.

I have to agree, I really don't see how they can exploit the system with the 20 second ninjutsu cooldown in place. You're supposed to be able to cast ninjutsu in 1-1.5 seconds anyways which is less than the global cooldown but with the lag you're looking at going past the global cooldown time which cuts into your dps and if you happen to lag worse than normal, can screw up your entire rotation if the wrong ninjutsu goes off.

Ninja doesn't have a lot of off global cooldown abilities so I really don't see why it would be a big deal even if somebody was able to make it faster than normal with hacks.

[Velhart]

I see what you're saying and you're not wrong. I'm just not sure I care.

The possibility that someone will find a way to exploit the system to do their ninjutsu really fast is extremely minor when compared to maintaining a design we know to be flawed. Mr. Ninja McJazzhands here would still be subject to the 20 second cooldown, so it's not like this lets him do something really degenerate. And if the client won't accept inputs any faster than, let's say, every 0.1 seconds? It's still nearly half a second for each ninjutsu which is perfectly reasonable for a normal person with normal non-jazz hands.

The problem isn't if we care. The problem is if SE cares, in which they do very much.